What Can Make Shohei Ohtani Cards Jump To Another Level?; Hockey Card Market Still Undervalued?; Playing Over/Under With Ohtani Cards At $10K

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby. Share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Cards to the Moon. This is episode 391. My name is Clark Mark from 5CardGuys.com you could also find me at 5Card Guys all spelled out all one word on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook and on TikTok coasting with me. And it's been a while. It is Hyung who is at cho Hyang on IG and YouTube as well. Summer's been busy for both of us. We're just kind of catching up before we press record on this episode. Hyung, the listeners know what I've been up to because I've been kind of shouting, sharing, sharing with them on the pod over the last couple weeks. But Hyung, what have you been up to? How has your summer been so far? It's been great. You know, summers are always good, you know, for me at least. Men's league baseball, obviously, you know, he's still got, you know, I'm 44 years old, but still schooling these, you know, men, these young men, humbling them, I bet I'm busy with a little bit of baseball and, you know, real life, I guess work. I guess we should stop saying real life because especially for you, real life is the hobby, right? This is real life. This is real life. So I gotta somehow have my real life equal to the hobby. So it's not there yet. So I'm working hard so that eventually, you know, that can happen. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh No, you know what? When you get there, it is the life. Like it's no better place to be. You know, honestly, like, it's. If, if I, I could see as a kid, you know, when we're younger, it's like, oh, I want to be an architect, I want to be a doctor. I think kids nowadays are saying, you know, I want to do sports cards for the rest of my life. And there's. There's a valid argument. Yu-Gi-Oh I mean, it's already started with, I think the. I saw a recent poll when they asked younger. The younger generation YouTuber content creator is up there now. Yu-Gi-Oh You know, along with doctor, along with the traditional, you know, go to jobs. Right. So we're already seeing the change. But Yu-Gi-Oh good to see that you're doing well. And it was really, you know, with the fall coming up, with the school year, coming up with my kids, everything will become a little bit more routine. But Yu-Gi-Oh I'm glad we were able to kind of come out weekly with the pod. Summers are always a crapshoot because we're so busy, but we got through another one. So, um, so here we go. Off the top. I was on Sports Cards Live, you knew about that with Jeremy Lee a couple Saturdays ago. And as we were streaming live on his show, there was an auction for The Macklin Celebrini, one of one Young Guns hockey card that sold for about $1.3 million. It is. Yu-Gi-Oh It's the highest public sale for any non one-of-one Gretzky hockey card ever. Okay. So I want to ask you, Hyung, what you thought of that sale. And you know, I don't want you to compare celebrity to Gretzky. Of course that's ridiculous right now to do. But more in context of where we are now in the hobby. Right, right. Do you think this is the beginning of a run of more modern cards being valued in this seven figure range, or do you think this was kind of an exception? I think. Well, one, obviously it's a whole different conversation when you compare like a Celebrini to a Gretzky, but I think you could extrapolate a lot of information as well and where the state of the hobby is based on, you know, hockey itself. And we've talked about this on the show in the previous. We think that hockey is going to have its boom and its time. And it has to be honest, it's been an emerging market that's been growing the last five years. And you know, they, you know, after Connor McDavid, it's like any other sport. Everybody's looking for the next Connor McDavid, the one-of-one Gretzky's, you know, the Gordie Howes, the Mario Lemieux, like these are the goats that, you know, shaped the game of hockey. And we're seeing it. And this is the dangers. It's like this is such a new market that it is mind blowing that a one of one Young Guns of Celebrini sold for over a million dollars. But. But we've seen it in other sports. It's common when scarcity becomes the front runner. And with any marketplace, it goes back to supply and demand. And as long as sports exists and communications platforms like the Internet exists, we're gonna base everything around who the superstars are of the sport. Because in this day and age, compared to, let's just say, even 20 years ago, Yu-Gi-Oh one-of-one Gretzky had the spotlight, but you had to patch auto on tv, you had to hear it on the radio, you had to read about it in newspapers. You know, and I think this is a point that a lot of people take for granted is our society today is getting more connective, meaning it's more in your face of what's available. News is in our hands within seconds. So I think that plays a massive role in how our whole market is emerging. And I'm not surprised because like I said, it takes one person, just one person, whether good or bad intention, whether it's, oh, you know what, you know, we know where the hockey market's going to be in five years. I'm okay with spending a million dollars because at the end of the day I control the market. And as long as Celebrini, you know, has an amazing career, you know, that justification is valid because. And to compare Gretzky, that Gretzky car, I think it's very important to compare it because to me that those PSA 10 Gretzky's are undervalued. I think they're way undervalued at 1.5 to 3.75 million or whatever. Those. I think there was a high sale of 375 in 2021 for the one of the PSA 10s. And then it was like 1.5 was a record breaking sale in 2020, you know, so if I'm taking information from that, it's like either one person's crazy for paying a million plus for a young guns celebrity or it is a deal and everything else is on sale still. Right? Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh No, first, you know what, I'm laughing too because I think I said that on sports cards live, on Jeremy Lee, like they're, you know, we're all like amazed at this $1 million sale of the Celebrini. But I was saying if you put that one-of-one Gretzky back on the market, imagine what it's going to be. Hot take, $10 million card. Right. I know, I don't, I don't know if that's a hot take actually. Yu-Gi-Oh it's one of those hot takes, but it really isn't, you know, in a couple years potentially. Right? Yes, but I agree with you 100% and I like what you said too about in the macro, I guess. First, just to rebut a little bit, I do agree with you in terms of like the news feed just being in your face all the time and more people being connected. But in I guess the flip side of that is people can forget about you easily as well because things move so quickly. So there is a higher risk as well in investing in cards like Celebrini. Because who's the next star? We don't, we might not even have heard his name yet, you know, Gavin McKenna. Hopefully for Leafs fans like myself, you know, like maybe that, that's going to be the next boom cycle and then we're going to see his cards start to start to go up once they get into the newer packs of hockey cards. Yu-Gi-Oh sorry. It's an interesting point you made because I feel like what the hobby loves is the young superstar. So you have, so take two players. You have a young superstar like Celebrini who put up 115 points as a 20 year old, 19 year old. Right. Which is ridiculous. That doesn't happen. You look at, you know, earlier careers of, you know, I'm not sure, maybe Nathan McKinnon is not a good example. But I don't, I don't know his, you know, rookie stats. But like when you see that trajectory of a Celebrini do that, I think the hype becomes real where it's, there's a difference between that player and a player that potentially could. So like the hobby loves the Cooper flags for instance, you know what I mean? Because why he's a young guy that's actually scoring and producing, right. And I think that's the driver of the massive, massive prices. And then every everybody else, the sports card market doesn't exist. It's just so non existent compared to that one superstar. Right. So that's, it's always been that way. That's interesting. Hold that thought because it's gonna, I'm gonna bring it up again in our next segment but just hold that thought because I do see some val. I wanted to finish. My other thought was in the macro, I agree with you in terms of hockey cards having its day. I think it's coming and you kind of said like, you know, who's next other than like the McDavid's and like all these stars right now. Honestly I feel like people are still sleeping on McDavid. So I think that's where hockey cards are. Like it's, it's not there yet compared to the other three major sports. And I hate to say it, but I'm still looking for a nice McDavid because I think the opportunity is still there. But yes, I agree with you in the macro, hockey is going to become a real big thing within the Hobby for sure. No, I and I going, going to that point. I think you extrapolate. Crosby underrated. Ovechkin underrated like in terms of card prices when you really think about it. So I think there's massive, massive buying opportunities on the Crosbys and the Vechkin, the Lemieux, even the Gretzky's. Like, you know, you look at the way Michael Jordan's markets reacting with old inserts, you know, they're amazing Gretzky cards that nobody knows about in the 80s and 90s that are Zebra Zebra cheap for relative market prices compared to, you know, other goats. And going back to that PSA 10, it's like this is a perfect example of, you know, supply and demand. You compare an 86 Fleer Jordan PSA 10 to a Gretzky, and I think that Gretzky should always outsell that Jordan just based on know supply, demand. Right. And that's why I think Gretzky is in that category where it's like, hey man, this is the holy Grail. There's two PSA ten, right. And he is the greatest of all time of his sport. And everybody agrees that it's the same level as Michael Jordan. So it's like when you extrapolate that data, it's like, is that price reflected or is it undervalued? And I see severe, like just undervalued in general, the hockey market. But like I said, Yu-Gi-Oh it's. It's the future growth of the sport and how that sport communicates it with to the rest of the world and includes participation of the next generation. We look at baseball as a whole. I like where baseball's going. I think it's growing based on guys like Shohei Ohtani, you know, people who are global superstars that are growing the sport. So for me, that is a huge macro lens, fundamental piece of how I view the baseball hobby and why I like the baseball hobby. Because is the sport growing itself? Is the communication factor, you know, technology in our faces where we could actually get data from it? And the answer is yes. So it's the same thing. Will hockey be continuously growing in the grassroots and as a whole? If it's a yes, then hey, I'm really, really bullish on the hockey market because there are based on where the card market is with other sports. And leading sports are, you know, obviously baseball, basketball and football and even you see it in soccer cards, you see it in lifestyle cards, you see in Disney, Marvel, you know, everything is going in that direction. So why isn't hockey right so it's inevitable. Yu-Gi-Oh I agree. And you know there's going to be 84 games this season. We're going to see more points scoring records. So that's another factor to consider. I'm going to save the whole idea of the pending lockout for MLB for another episode because I think that's a really interesting discussion to have, especially with Yuhyung. So I'll save that because sure. I'm a little worried, to tell you the truth. Like to buy cards now and then if there is a lockout, you know, what happens to the baseball card market? Whole other discussion. But hey, Yu-Gi-Oh really quick. I'm just gonna leave it at that. This is one point I'll make on that. Wasn't. Wasn't Covid the same thing? What happened to that? It went opposite of what we. What everybody was thinking. I remember I panic sold Acuna sapphires because. Because of COVID It was the same thing as the locket. What happens to the market when baseball doesn't exist? And that was the one of the biggest booms of our whole industry at the time. Right. So I'll just leave it at that and we could discuss. That's up for argument. Okay, sure, sure. But there are other sports going to be played while baseball's locked out. I'm just saying. Yu-Gi-Oh So we'll have a good debate. I'm looking forward to it now actually. But. Okay, we got other things to talk about. Let's move on to hobby headlines. Alright. I want to do a rundown of an ESPN article that came out recently and it's titled Tracing Shoi Ohtani's Career in Baseball Cards. And I'll include the link to the article in the show notes below. But I think it was really well done by ESPN in how interactive it was in conveying a lot of cool and interesting information. And there are some points of discussion I want to dig a little deeper on. So what I'll do is we've done this in the past. I'll go over the article, kind of highlight a few of the main points and we can go from there. Sure. All right. So the main thrust of the article obviously is the rise of. Of his rookie card values. And we've been talking about this on the POD for years now. And you know, we're saying, oh, it's got to burst at some point, but continues to still defy all expectations. So the main question for you to start things off is the continual rise of his rookie card values. Do you think it's sustainable and how long if you do, it's sustainable as long as Ohtani performs. Right. And that's the scary part is one, if you think Ohtani is going to have this career for the rest of his career, then it's safe, you know, but if he runs into injuries or, you know, it goes south, then it's supply demand. It goes to supply demand. Now, with that said, that's why we look at pop counts. That's why it's so important. Because if you look at the basic fundamentals of our market, it follows the exact same rules as every single market, whether it's real estate, whether it's stocks, you know, it's supply demand, period. Right? Because if you have unlimited supply, then obviously no matter how much demand you have, the market's not going to hold. So it's the same concept that we're talking about because everybody says, oh, it's going to burst, it's going to burst. Well, what would make it burst? It would be that there's too much supply and not enough demand. And it's like, do you see that in a world full of communication, where we're connected, where we get MLB in front of our face and Ohtani is doing things on a global scale, do you project Ohtani people to say, Yu-Gi-Oh you know what? I'm out on Ohtani, I'm not going to trade his cards anymore. That's the question. Is that realistic? And stuff like the iPad situation, Right. The. That could potentially disrupt the market. But like I said, that didn't happen, so it didn't really disrupt it. So it's like those are things that I take into consideration. Will it go down? Yes, it could. Because what if he performs bad? What if he gets injured just by basic marketplace? Will the low pop cards go down? Probably not. Right. So it goes back to now. How do we, how do we look at it in the macro lens and then apply in the micro lens of the day to day? Right. So that would be the whole basis of the Ohtani market. It's as strong as it can be until the demand drops. But I don't see the demand dropping anytime soon. Okay, that's fair. And I like some of the points you said, so I'm going to dig deeper into, into a few of those because I think there's a lot of nuance in it in terms of supply. Right. And I was going to say at this point for later, but it kind of, it kind of goes with this next point in the fact that Topps has produced more than a thousand one of one Ohtani cards just in the 2025, 26 season. Correct. Okay, so if you extrapolate that a lot more Ohtani cards in general are printed. Of course, of course we know why. It's to sell product. People want Otani cards, and then there's a few of those big hits that are in those boxes in those sets. So in terms of supply, do you. Is that a concern for you now or do you think there's still room for tops or Fanatics in this case to continue to print even more because you think the demand side is also going up? Where do you think we are in the where we are question? I think the good thing is, Regardless, we thought 2018 print runs were high in general. Right, right, right. So it's good that that's over because you're still gonna have. And that's why you see a massive spike in Ohtani prices in his rookie year, is because at the end of the day, that's the supply is limited. It's already done. 2018's passed. Right. It is what it is. So this is why pricing is astronomical, because it just shows you the amount of demand there is for the Shohei market. Right. So if. If they're producing a thousand cards and you look at it in the context of, oh my God, a thousand cards is ridiculous to print one of ones. They. The one of ones aren't as valuable. That is such a limiting statement in my opinion, and a lot of people I hear all the time, but that's. That's almost like literally scratching the surface of that statement, where there's so many things that would disagree with that statement or it's pending, depending on this or that. Right. So I think context. Yu-Gi-Oh you have to have the context. Yes, it is a lot. And based on Ohtani's market, I'll tell you what, I. I told you this before, I think Ohtani inserts are going to be massive. And they are now. Right. So it's like I see raw cards that I thought were just common cards. Ohtani that are growing every single day doesn't matter if it's 2022, 2023, 2024. So right now, currently they produce a thousand one of ones and print astronomically. Is the pricing of other Ohtani cars dropping? And the answer is no. So that tells me the demand for the Ohtani market is that hot. Now, like I said, that doesn't guarantee anything because people could collect all these Ohtani cards and realize, hey, they're not worth that much. I overpaid. Right. And that's the whole point of a marketplace. Right. But in the meantime, I don't think that's common behavior. Like I said, I had a chance to liquidate all my Ohtani cards. If anything, I decided to do the opposite now and keep on collecting more Ohtani cards. Right. Cause it doesn't make sense to sell it off because one cash is losing more value than Ohtani cards are appreciating. So Ohtani currency is worth way more than cash right now. Right. So to me it's, it's understanding context is so important. Like you can't use blanket black and white statements that apply to, you know, Zion Williamson and apply to Shohei Ohtani. Yu-Gi-Oh that's fair as well. And I like what you said about like the, obviously the rookie year is a huge year, but even 2019, 2020, those print runs are done, you know, you can't get any more of those years. And so I think some of those cards in those subsequent years are undervalued. Even though it does. It's crazy for a lot of people, cost a lot, but it's still relatively undervalued. So I, Yu-Gi-Oh And then, you know, like, maybe if I'm going to be careful, I'm going to be more careful obviously with the newer sets this year, last year, you know, I mean anytime he's been a Dodger and, and even then you can make an argument for like, oh well, this first year Dodgers could really hold value in the long term. Right. So that's, that's something to consider as well. But I like what you said about context. A lot of different variables involved. But, but I want to bring up that point now. The other thing that you said was whether he, you know, if he gets injured, of course that's going to impact his value. I'm going to say not if he is going to get injured. Most baseball players will get injured in their career, especially Ohtani. He does pitching and batting. So higher risk of injury just because of what he puts his body through. My question is, do you think he's done enough to like in his career already that even if he sustains a long term injury, even if it's a year, even if it's another Tommy John, I don't know if it's possible to have multiple, multiple Tommy Johns, but even if it was something like that, do you think there is a solid Fleer for Ohtani card values or do you think that would make it go down to a point where, oh Yu-Gi-Oh it's, it's. Some of these cards are really Beginning to tank, I think. I think you're gonna, you're gonna have that with some cards because there's so much supply. Right. If it went the other way. But I think there's a Fleer for Ohtani regardless, because like I said, Jordan card value, in my opinion, is not worth his talent alone. I think there's. We. If we look at Jordan and what he's done to society culturally, you know, impactful. I think there's a lot of that baked into why Jordan is the goat and therefore why people decide that they're gonna buy Jordan cards. So I think Ohtani is in the same boat where if you really extrapolate Ohtani's value in society, not just as a baseball player for the LA Dodgers, we're torn talking about who he means for kids, what he means for brands, what he does for businesses. Right. And this is cultural impact. This is not. This is not just baseball impact. And I think there's a lot that goes into that that makes Ohtani who he is. So, meaning if he's in a New Balance commercial, we're paying attention. Right? So when, when, when you look at someone like that, it becomes more of a icon celebrity than just the baseball player. And I think he's established that where he's, he's more defined as a superstar in. In culture rather than just baseball. Baseball just happens to be his art form, just like any musician, just like any artist. Right. You look at a very, very popular actor, whether it's like a Kevin Costner or, you know, who. Whoever. Right? Like, Yu-Gi-Oh you know what I mean? They're more than just an actor in, in two other people. That's why they hold value in the long term. So I think Ohtani is one of that in a massive, or a context where I could compare him almost to a Jordan, like, type in terms of cultural impact and moving the whole mountain. Right. So Ohtani is different. That's a good point. Yu-Gi-Oh that's a good point. Yu-Gi-Oh He goes. He transcends baseball, in other words. Right, yes. So, Yu-Gi-Oh I agree with that. And I love how you. This is going to reflect not just your age, our age, that you mentioned Kevin Costner as the marquee actor. If, you know, you know, base baseball players know, man. That's true. That's true. He's. Yu-Gi-Oh he's beloved in the baseball community. He's up there. Well, kind of also relate. This is kind of a good segue to a lot of the points I, I wrote down for this segment. But are there any other milestones that you could think of that Ohtani can hit that will result in another, like, just spike in value. We know. Like, you know, he's. He's done a lot already. Multiple world championships. That was missing for a long time when he was with the Angels. He. He's got that now, you know, MVPs. Got that. Like, you know, I think Cy Young's probably next in terms of adding to his resume, but is there anything else where you would just see like, oh, shoot, this guy is like, we thought he was one of one. He's. He's a definitely unicorn. Like, what else can he do in his baseball career that would. That would make him go to. Even to another level? I'll tell you exactly what. He has to one-of-one Seven. Seven plus MVPs. Yu-Gi-Oh Okay, then. Then I will say he's the greatest of all time. Seven. Why seven? Barry Bonds. Oh, Barry Bonds. Oh, that's. Yu-Gi-Oh Seven MVPs. Like seven MVPs. How many does Ohtani have? Four. Four, right? I think so. So there's the. There's the milestone marker. Yu-Gi-Oh And you have seven years to do it. Eight years to do it. A good. Eight years. That's doable. It's doable. That's what I'm saying. That's a. Which is a massive milestone because, like I said, Trout with three, there's a bunch with three, and then there's a big jump of seven with Barry Bonds. So to me, like I said, I don't care whether you're for or against the whole steroid era, but that's a whole different conversation. Regardless, Barry Bonds has done inhumane things. If he was doing things that Barry Bonds was doing today, I'm telling you, Barry Bonds would be just as popular as Ohtani. I think that's true. Yu-Gi-Oh That's a good one, though. Seven MVPs. Yu-Gi-Oh I just checked his four MVPs. Two Al, two NL. There it is. So that's. And then, you know, there's. There's a debate now with. Between him and PCA Pico Armstrong, so he could very well have five after the season. All he needs is two more after that. Dude, do you think. You think he's gonna. He's gonna take PCA in the. In the voting? That's a good question. Tough. It's a tough. It's close. I would say it's very. PCA is having, Yu-Gi-Oh What a year. Unbelievable. 40 40. He's gonna be a 4040 guy this year. I feel like we're both high on him. You. You More so. But even I underestimated him this after this season. I honestly he is an MVP type caliber and P people don't understand like because I, I remember Pete Crow, Armstrong, he, when he played Team USA, we were in, in Korea actually in 2019, right before COVID and PCA was a starting center fielder and he was so. And mind you, there was Riley Green and previous teams, Corbin Carroll, you know, Pete Croms like really stacked team out there and Right. But the difference with PCA in my opinion was he changes the game so much defensively that people don't really see. Right. And that's where, that's why his one-of-one his WAR is so high is because he's impacting the game just not offensively. He's doing it in every single possible way possible. And that's why you like guys like PCA. And I'll tell you, Bobby Witt Jr. Is another guy that's very similar where it's not all about stats. It's about how impactful are you on your team and with your game. So PCA I'm very high on. This is what you would expect on the high end of Pete Kuro Armstrong. He is an MVP type caliber. Now we said that about guys like Corbin Carroll, Pete Crow, Armstrong. These guys all have the potential. It's a matter of, okay, can you do it in the spotlight now and actually perform. And PCA's been doing that. So I believe that he deserves the mvp. But I would not be surprised. I, I would be comfortable with giving it to Ohtani just because he's that valuable to a team, both pitching and, you know, hitting. That's true. Yu-Gi-Oh it's true. But in a way it's unfair because he's the only one that could do it. You know what I mean? So to give him it for that reason every single year, well, that's a pretty important fact to a team. Like, I mean if you're a team, wouldn't you be like, you know what? I, I want to spend a billion dollars on Ohtani because he could do both and nobody else can do it. Done. I love it. I love you. If you're not, if you're listening to this on audio, Hyung's just shrugging his shoulders like, well, the other team should do it. Absolutely, if it was possible. But no, with Beckett. Yu-Gi-Oh I think this is one of the major differences between PCA and Ohtani. If you kind of look in the macro, PC has to do it year after year. Like Ohtani has been like, you know, that's the main difference right now. And PC is just getting started. He's a young, younger guy, of course, but Yu-Gi-Oh we'll see. Like, hopefully you could do it next year, the year after that. I will say one more thing on this point, and I'm saying this strictly from a baseball lens. It is so difficult to be consistent year after year. And I don't care. You could be the best baseball player in the world. You are going to go through phases where you're absolutely hot and then you go through a cold streak and that could happen three, four months out of the year. So one bet and people say it with Vladi Pattis, they're like, oh, say Vladi, he's so, he's so washed out. I'm like, you guys are insane. This guy's an 80 hit tool. And because he's having a down season, you guys are bashing the guy. I'm like, hitting is the hardest thing to do in sport to be consistent. The way a Bobby Witt Jr. Even you see it in Ohtani right now. You see the inconsistencies in Acuna, Tatis, Vladdy, but they are the superstars. Are you kidding me? You know what I mean? So with that point, my point is hitting is very difficult and for people to do it year in and year out, it is one of the most difficult things to do, is be consistent in baseball. So with that point, I think it's going to be a challenge for PCA to do it year in, year out. But don't expect all these players to do what Ohtani is doing. Like it just does not happen. Yes, excellent point. And again leads perfectly to my next question, my next point of discussion, and this is what I was teasing earlier and I told you to remember that point. Does Ohtani's market value actually hurt the rest of the baseball card market since there are just collectors just want Ohtani right now, you know what I mean? Like in, of course I'm talking more broadly, but because everyone just wants Ohtani targeting Ohtani, it just diminishes the value of other really good players. Even pca, I would argue. So do you think that's the case right now that we're seeing in the baseball card? Absolutely not. I think if anything it does the opposite. It shows, Yu-Gi-Oh Ohtani market can be inflated to the point where he, he's definitely not worth a buy. Well, maybe we should never say that because we're always wrong on that. But in general the logic is like, I rather buy something cheaper with more upside than you know, buy something more expensive with we don't know the upside. Right. So I think it helps everybody else's cards because now you could extrapolate, okay, Ohtani is this much better than Jordan Alvarez, but Jordan Alvarez's prices are a thousand times cheaper than Ohtani. So there it gives you a gauge of, you know what? I think there's more value in this guy because, you know, Ohtani's market is really, you know, giving me that context of value of what people are willing to pay for rare cards. And it's not saying that Jordan Alvarez market will ever even come close to the Ohtani market. But like I said, there has to be some validation of okay, how much better and does that price reflect that? So there's either going to be an overpriced card or underpriced card. And that Ohtani market helps us establish that better in my opinion. Otherwise it's all speculative. If Ohtani's market was non existent and we're all saying, okay, what can these cards be actually worth? You know what I mean? Yu-Gi-Oh agree, agree. I think there's a lot to be said in terms of, Yu-Gi-Oh Seeing where the Ohtani market is right now. Obviously I think it's overvalued for a lot of his cards, but I also think a lot of other players cards are really undervalued. And I am glad you brought up Jordan Alvarez. I mean he could one-of-one a triple crown this year. Unbelievable. That's a credible achievement. And we say this about Jordan every year though, right? Like how underrated he is or you know, like undervalued he is. And year after year he just performs. I would argue he is one of the greatest modern day hitters in baseball, period. That is a bold. Yes, bold, bold statement. If that guy could play defense, he would be. He'd be 10 plus war every single year. He would be the modern day, like I would say just the purest superstar Barry Bonds type hitter if he could play defense. Yu-Gi-Oh But like I said, people don't value like DH for instance in our market for whatever reason, you know, the Jordan's. If you see Jordan's 162 game average, I want everybody to Google or baseball reference that and see his 162 game average. It probably out of every modern player in existent today, it probably is one of the strongest stat lines in all of baseball. And that's crazy. Including Ohtani. Including Ohtani. Offensively, not. Not pitching wise obviously, but offensively, Yu-Gi-Oh Jordan's 162 is better than anybody's There you go. High praise for Jordan Alvarez. All right. Okay. I just got one more question for the segment, and I'm gonna go macro again, kind of pull back a little bit. And we talked about this on the pod before, but I'm gonna add a little twist and see what you, what you think. But are cards, sports cards, trading cards, are they legit alternative assets? Right. And I asked this because the question's always being asked is, you know, are we in another bubble? You know, is that major regression coming? And, and now the argument is like, oh, repackers, you know, they're huge in the industry now, right? They're propping up the market. And now you have this added element of wealthy collectors. We talked about Kevin o' Leary and you know, like investment firms coming into the market. What happens if they get bored of the trading card market? Like, they're the one, they're saying, like, oh, you know what, why are we collecting rare Mickey Mantles? Why don't we just go after Picasso? You know, wealthy collectors, can we really depend on them to stay in the market? Repackers, is it going to be viable in terms of business for the long term? What happens if they leave? So all these questions are being asked now, right? As we dig deeper into the hobby, as more people come into the hobby. So do you still think they're legit alternative assets or is there a reason for concern? I think in general, there's obviously reason for concern, but that's, that's the point of emerging market is you don't know where it's going. But I'll tell you one thing, there are enough wealthy entrepreneurs, collectors, that value sports cards like art. So it's one of those things where if you want to argue sports cards might as well go the full distance and argue why art is not worth that much. And yes, you could argue the money laundering aspect of, of that. But there are true collectors, there are true paintings that are worth what they are worth just based on supply, demand and scarcity. Right? And it's, it goes back to the same fundamental principle. Why does somebody want a Mona Lisa or a Picasso is because there's so few in existence and there are enough artists, connoisseurs that, that value it at that price. So that's all that matters. When you have a low pop count, for instance, in a sports card market, and you have a really wealthy investor or someone who sees sports cards as art or a collectible or even a generational piece, because that's the way they think. They don't think like the typical normal person. It's like, who would pay $5 million for this card? That's. I hear that. Typical. Well, somebody. Somebody would only say that if they didn't have $5 million. Correct. Because the person without the $5 million is looking at the card in a whole different context than someone that Kevin O' Leary is looking at a $5 million card. We will never understand their buying pattern. But I will say this, I guarantee you I trust their buying pattern than someone without $5 million. Why is because they don't understand that the true supply and demand and why someone purchases a $5 million and it could be for multiple reasons. It doesn't even have to be monetary value. Right. And that's the difference between wealthy and it could be a generational heirloom that gets passed on to generation from generation and it will always exist within the family, meaning that card is burnt for the next hundred years. Right. So to me it's like again, it's all context. You got to look at context and unfortunately our emotions at the bottom feeders of this whole hobby, people could care less. So it shouldn't be driven by emotion. It should be driven by what's actually happening in terms of who controls the market. And yes, I've always said this. There's huge concern when you have an unregulated market. Do we know that these sales are, you know, legit or are they institutional money that's just coming in to establish the market, establish a baseline, establish a Fleer on the high? We don't know. But again, that's really not under my control. But I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing, especially based on my personal holdings of sports cards. So why would I argue that piece if, you know, I'm personally benefiting from the Ohtani market because of, you know, said investors at the high end. So is this a bubble? I think a lot of cards are speculative and a lot of those cards being purchased that are speculative are not coming from the really wealthy because the really wealthy are purchasing the ones that are actually worth it. And the rest of the speculative market is us who are speculating that the affordable cards can be purchased. You see what I'm saying? So it's a double edged sword because you could see both sides to it and you could be right on both sides. So I'm not saying that that statement's wrong or anything, but with context, I think there's a stronger argument that I'm sitting on the the top end, wealthier side than the complainers. At the bottom feeders like us that are complaining why the. Why the repackers are ruining this hobby. We're looking at two totally different things. Yu-Gi-Oh no, it's. It's a loaded question. And I do, I agree with you. There's varying degrees of truth on each side and a lot of context. You need a lot of context to really read this market in a more accurate way. So I agree with you. For me, I think we've crossed that threshold in terms of, you know, how many people are in the hobby that will stay in the hobby. You know, like, if the wealthy collectors left, the 1% left, I think it'll be just fine. You know, like, some market, some segment of the market might implode a little bit, but then the rest will be healthy enough to kind of regenerate. Right. And I think, you know, in terms of, like, go. Just go to the card shows. I've been to three of the bigger ones this past summer. It is. It is Beckett And people can say, Yu-Gi-Oh well, it was kind of like that right after Covid. But it's a different vibe. Like, people are excited. People are looking to collect long term now, you know, rather than just flippers, you know, and so. And I'm not against flippers. I'm a part flipper myself. But it's. It does seem like we're in a health. We have a healthier ecosystem because we have a lot of different variety of collectors in the for sure market. Right. And I. It's a good point you. You raised is if I extrapolate, you know, let's just say where the hobby is in the next five, six years to 2032. I think what I'm seeing at least, and, you know, data could prove me wrong, but I think it will support this is even though, let's just say people are saying, oh, I'm leaving the hobby. Marketing will always be no marketing. And what that means is, regardless, there are more people entering the hobby at a faster rate than people are leaving the hobby. And if we say that, okay, the next four or five years, how does that look? It totally changes the numbers and infrastructure of the hobby and the participation of the hobby. So to me, that becomes the fundamental baseline of where I see whether this is, you know, a bubble or not, because fundamentals will ultimately dictate whether or not this is a bubble. And I don't see that in the participation, no matter how many people are. You know, it's funny because especially in Facebook forums, you know, people are like, I'm so fed up with this hobby. I'm leaving. And then you get the memes. No point in announcing your departure. See Yu-Gi-Oh Right. And then it's one of those things where, you know, people are enjoying the hobby. People are coming into the hobby at unprecedented rates. Like the growth rate is ridiculous. So you gotta argue that fact before you're talking the specific cards of what is a bubble and what's not. Right. So I think. And then you mix in going back to marketing is Fanatics, is psa, Are the drivers of the marketplace basically doing their job in marketing? And I don't know. Let me ask you that. Do you think they're doing a good job or not? Absolutely. I mean, I'm buying everything these days. Exactly. And that's my whole point. And back in 2022, when we asked the same question, is it a bubble or not, we talked about this, Clark, and we said we believe that Fanatics understands communication and marketing really good. And they're going to use MLB players to create experiences and create a brand that revolves around the sport itself and emerging collectors into the sport. And what have they done? They've done a ridiculous job in marketing. Marketing. And I think they deserve a, A in that field. So to me, that's another fundamental principle of why I see the hobby continuously growing and why people are entering the space. Because it becomes that over what cards, you know, are going to crash and what cards are going to grow. As a whole general statement, though, that's the reason why I'm saying we're in a good position in the hobby. Yu-Gi-Oh I agree. The only thing I will add is, you know, and people are probably going to start calling us Fanatics fanboys. And I love Fanatics. I'm not going to argue that. But you know, I'm also for competition too, because I think that'll help the industry grow overall. Right. So, you know, if there is a legit competitor coming into the space, I think that'll add more creativity. They'll add things to the hobby that we haven't even thought of or even discussed. I think that's where the room to grow is still there, you know, for us to experience in the next five, 10 years. So who knows what the hobby will be like a decade from now even it could look completely different. Five years ago, we weren't talking about repackers. You know, 15 years ago we weren't talking really about breakers, live breaking. Yu-Gi-Oh Now there's ebay, live, there's Fanatics. There's so many different platforms. So this happened all relatively recently. So what can just imagine what it's going to be like even 10 years from now? For sure. I think people kind of have short term memory when we think about these things and like, oh, you know, nothing's improved in the hobby. Actually, if you ask a lot of people that participate in breaks, that participate in all these other areas of the hobby, I think they would probably disagree with that statement. Yu-Gi-Oh and it's tough because I get, I get the hobbyist standpoint too. I get why it's important to be an OG and be a true hobbyist. And it's not saying that everybody is, but you can't really control that. But what I can say is if you are a true hobbyist, you have the biggest advantage in an emerging marketplace to position yourself really well. So instead of complaining, why don't you use that knowledge to better your positioning in the space so that you could get the collection you want? Or if you're that bitter, then, hey, maybe there's something else that, you know, makes you more happy than, you know, the hobby. So it's one of those things where, like, I think there's so much positive. And that's why it's like the new people coming into the hobby, they don't see the side at all. They're like, oh, he's that grouchy old, you know, typical, you know, the typical old guy. Typical. Yu-Gi-Oh in whatever industry, right? In whatever industry. You could, you could extrapolate that. But my whole point is in our specific industry, it's, it follows the same thing. So I'm all about newcomers in the hobby. I'm all about, you know, I see kids coming into the hobby because their dad loves the hobby too. Like your kids, right? So it's like you look at that and you say, how, how could this be a bad thing? Or how could this only be a bad thing? Yes, there are bad things within the hobby because there are bad people. But as a whole, come on, man, we're in a Disneyland for sports card right now era. Absolutely. I love it. Great way to end the segment again. Definitely read the article. I think you'll have more fun actually looking at the article because there's a lot of things that do pop up. Very interactive, like I mentioned. I'll include that link in the show notes. All right, let's go to our next segment. It is over under. Okay, since, you know, we're back together after a while, over under 10k is the number. And once again, the theme is Shohei Ohtani. All right, we got it. We Got it. Like the Shoehe Ohtani market changes all the time. So it's something new. And I think this is going to be a hard one because man, I had a hard time. Like you know, when I looked up at the values of these cards I'm like well it's cost that much. What's going on? So over under 10k is the mark. Hey, is this reverse psychology right now? Reverse reverse psychology. All right, let's start off with an easy one. I think the easiest one because it's a well known card. The 2018 Bowman Chrome number one Shohei Ohtani PSA 10. These are all Ohtani PSA 10 cards. Oh Yu-Gi-Oh The 2018 Bowman Chrome Shoi Ohtani PSA 10 rookie card and it is the base. So obviously I, I, I've seen the Topps Chrome which is at like 1800 or something. Which is crazy because I remember when that thing, nobody wanted that card and now it's you know, training as $2,000 card and then pricing usually obviously the Bowman Chrome is a lower pop card and more desired. Yu-Gi-Oh So 10k is really like really crazy. Like I don't, I'm going to say it's under because I think it's, it should be closer to like 5 to 7k. But if it's over 10k I could see people getting carried away with it and you know, thinking it's the next $20,000 card. So I wouldn't be surprised if it's over 10k. I'm gonna say it's under though. You're right. It's 8200 right now which is high. Creeping towards that 10k. It will be over 10k. Mark my word. I just did an IG reel a few days ago. It was, I feel like in 2019 it was $24. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. You, and that's the thing, you would have to hold that card because everybody's saying, oh I, I wish I, you would have had to turn down what, what were the peaks during that, that rush. Do you remember the COVID time? I think it got up to like two grand. Less, less than two grand. Okay, 15, 1600. And that's a tough hold right there. Like you're selling. If you bought it for. Yu-Gi-Oh Back then the move would have been I'm gonna buy 10 of these for 240 bucks and sit on them and flip them. Right. And then it hit two grand. There's no way you're not selling. You know why you're not? Yu-Gi-Oh exactly. Because I think if you look at my IG reel, it dips to 600. Like, you know, I mean, so you're like, oh, shoot. And now it, what, shoots back up to 8,000 some? Sometimes, Yu-Gi-Oh Sometimes the best thing, best move, and I am a testament to this, is when you buy something, just lock it up and forget about it. Forget you even spent it and then just see in 10 years. Well, and I keep telling Roy, with this Pokemon card, sometimes you just got to forget about it. Just be lazy about it. You know, don't look at prices every day. All right, that was a fun one. Next one, 2013 BBM. So. So this is Japanese card, first version diamond. There's so many different variations of BBM cards, but this is a BBM first version diamond rookie card, PSA 10. I'm gonna say it's over, I think. And I knew BBM were gonna get their time. And this is one of the stuff I regret because I remember nobody wanted BBM. Nobody wanted BBM. Everybody's saying that 2018 is not his true rookie card. You gotta get 2013 BBM. And it's. It's a tough buy to pull the trigger when nobody wants it though. Fair. Yes. For all things. Yu-Gi-Oh but, but then I. Wouldn't you rather the Bowman Chrome or Topps Chrome rather than like a. Sure, Yu-Gi-Oh You know, I have no knowledge about. Yu-Gi-Oh Bpm. You're like, I don't know, it's just. But Yu-Gi-Oh I'm gonna say it's over 10k. You're right. 20,500. Insane. I'm sure the increase to that number is even greater than the Bowman Chrome. We just talked. And I will say, guys, pop count, man. This is why the astronomical prices. If you look, pop count will be the number one factor in any desirable card. Yes, sir. Okay, you mentioned this card already. 2018, Topps Chrome. But the X Factor, his rookie card, PSA 10. I told you. The X factor. Love in a couple episodes. There's something about X factors that people absolutely love. The Yu-Gi-Oh appeal is unbelievable. I love the X factor. I like that it's not numbered because it becomes one of those cards that, you know, like a silver Prizm where it's, it's liquid but it goes bonkers sometimes. Yu-Gi-Oh I believe that card is a 10k plus card, but I don't believe. Hang on, let me stop my thought right now. So if $1800 base, I'm going to say refractors are at 5k Prizm and Sepia ugly stuff are at 5 to 7k, I would say. And then that's the X factor. Is like at 7 to 10. So it's that tipping point. I'm going to say it's under. It's not there yet, but it will be over, I think in a year. Under. Well, you've been doing well so far, but you are completely wrong about this one. I think the Sepia sold for about 13K. Oh, my God, that's crazy. And the X factor just sold for 16,800. That is crazy. So, so we're there. We're there. The X factor love is there. So what, what does the Refractor go for? It's like 7K 8K. Now that's a good question. Let me quickly check. But Yu-Gi-Oh I wouldn't, I wouldn't be surprised if it's. That's the number 7K. 7K. So okay. It okay at one more. Can you look one more thing up for me? Yep. Out of 150 PSA 10 Blue Refractor, Ohtani Topps Chrome. Pitching the white jersey, the 150. I see the last one sold in April of this year for $23,200. So that's probably double. Based on, based on, based on X Factor sale. So just, just why I wanted to prove a point. I thought I did really well. I sold that card for three grand and I was, I was, I was fist pumping because I did really well on that. Yu-Gi-Oh Mm, crazy. Oh, you're not alone. Anyone that sold Ohtani earlier than they should have. Yu-Gi-Oh Don't check the prices now, but that's the thing. You, it's a one-of-one because you've, you did. Ohtani has done me so well. Like, how can I get mad at that? Right? At the end of the day, it's, it's even, even the base cards, the inserts, all these cards, they're worth hundreds and hundreds of dollars that are like, you know, just base pulls. So you got to count your wins. Yep. Last one. 20. 21. Okay. Non rookie or tops the Allen and Ginter chrome autograph card. PSA 10. What year? 2021. 20. So that's. I think I know exactly. It's an Angels. Yep. Non rookie Alan Ginter chrome, which is crazy. It's such a niche card. Like, you know what? I wouldn't be surprised if it's over because any otani Auto is PSA10. Yep, it's over. Yu-Gi-Oh you got the, you got influenced by the PSA. No. Well, the PSA I. Oh, well, finish fish up. Is it 9,000? Oh, my God. That's a deal. I like that deal. Yu-Gi-Oh And here's here's what, what I would say too. I think with PSA closing, I think a lot more people are rethinking the way their strategy because nor like norm. Like for. For instance, my strategy is similar to, I would say a guy like Paul Hickeys where they believe in raw to PSA 10 value. Like that's, that is the most profitable. Like if you know what you're doing with raw cards. Right. So, Yu-Gi-Oh it's an interesting period I was gonna bring back. I thought PSA10s would temporarily go for way more now that you know it's just such a process to submit, it's not worth the risk. So during the time when PSA10s are reasonable, it's like purchase it outright, especially in a. Like an Ohtani auto. So I, I personally think under 10 grand for a PSA 10 Ohtani auto, soon we're going to be like, dang, I should have locked up all the PSA10 autos of Ohtani. Because if you really look at pop report how many PSA10 autos are there of Ohtani? I don't care what set, what year, I'll take it because I guarantee you it's way lower than what people think. There are there a lot out there. Absolutely. But there's so much demand that that becomes a collectible in itself. So going back to that price, 10k under, I think that's a steal. I like that strategy, especially with how long grading takes. Time is money. Now at this point, I don't know, I have a bunch of cards that I can't send. So it's like. And then you mix in, you mix in the lockout too. It's like, you don't want to take that risk right now. Right, Right. So it's one of those things where, hey, man, I'm out on grading for the next Visible future. Yu-Gi-Oh maybe a couple years. Seriously, because the what? Let's just say you grade right now and PSA opens their service, you get it back in the spring and then there's a lockout. Yu-Gi-Oh right, right. Yu-Gi-Oh Bad timing. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh So things to consider. But there you go. That's the state of Ohtani cards in terms of value for you for this. For this episode. Okay, let's finish off our episode with our regular weekly segment we call Pick one. Do you have one for us? Yes, I do. I want to go to two players we actually talked about on this episode because they're, they're going for MVP race and we mentioned Pete Crow, Armstrong and Jordan Alvarez. And I, I like these because they're two different mindsets of investment. Because one, Jordan Alvarez is now he's 29 years old, so he's, I would consider him starting to become a veteran. And he, like I said, he is the best pure hitter in the sport of baseball today. Right. And I think he's way undervalued. You look at some of his cards, and we're not even talking about the card I'm picking. If you look at some of his base cards, some of his even parallels of non autos, they are Fleer cheap, right? So to me, there's a lot of buying opportunity with Jordan. Will his market sit sideways? Potentially, because it's always been that way. But I see an uptick based on this year's performance of Jordan. Okay, so I'm going to take one of his, I would say non desirable cards because his other desirable cards I find like are starting to tick up especially low color autos. I'm going to go with a 2020 Topps Chrome. It's the 1985 insert auto rookie, but orange Refractor. Okay. Out of 25 a rock hard just sold for 435 bucks. Right. So I could watch. 435 bucks. Okay, so I'll send it in in our chat group just so we're on the same page here. So that is the, the Jordan orange auto. Okay, I see it. So 400, what do we say, 35 bucks? Yu-Gi-Oh Sold for 435 bucks last week. And then I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you Pete Crow. Armstrong's tops Heritage Real One Auto in 2024, a raw card sold for similar price. I would say four. Between 400 and 450, let's just say. So similar price points, two amazing players, two potential MVPs this year. Pete Crowe. Armstrong is still an emerging superstar. I think Jordan Alvarez is five years older, has a more established career. Out of those two cards, what are you picking? This is easy for me, Jordan Alvarez. I wonder if he's kind of like Mookie Betts. Remember how when we started this pod, Mookie Betts was the guy always underrated, undervalued, you know, and as we speak, like we expected sideways, right? Hasn't gone up, hasn't gone down, just consistently sideways. And I feel like that's the same for Jordan. I like the more of the volatility play that we would get in pca. And I am a sucker for Heritage Real One auto. So, like those two things alone kind of. Yu-Gi-Oh make me choose pca. And you think that the Real one auto has better short term value too? Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh for sure. Over especially the insert. Like I, I actually like the look of the Jordan Alvarez card that you chose. Like, oh, that's it's a color match number to 25. That's appealing. But, but Yu-Gi-Oh the brand itself of Heritage. You know what I mean? Right. Real one autos, I think it's, it's a plus. Fair enough. One, one last question. So it's funny how it all pertains to the Ohtani market. So do you know, do you know when you see like an Otani real one auto sell and it sells for 30,000, 40,000 and then let's just say a 1985 insert auto of Ohtani sells for massive like the same design, does that play in effect of what card you're purchasing? So for instance, for this instance, the Jordan orange out of 25. Right. There's not really an Ohtani card that, I mean there is an insert auto, I think of Ohtani in that year. That makes that card design kind of like, oh, I know this card because of the Ohtani. You know what I mean? Does, does that affect the Ohtani effect trickle down into like your decisions whether you purchase Pete Crow, Armstrong or Urdan? I don't think so. I think the real one Heritage stand on stands on its own. And I think for the latter case, like an insert auto card, like, I think it's more because of Ohtani, the player that makes it recognizable rather than the insert card. Right. Fair enough. In my opinion. And no, that's cool because the. My point is I don't know who I'm gonna Beckett. But there are two sales that were exactly the same price. So one person chose Jordan regardless and one person chose Pete Crow Armstrong. And it's interesting because they have their own justification of why they purchased it. But I 100% agree. I wouldn't touch that Jordan card just because we know the market, man. Like, what is it going to take for Jordan to do Yordan things and still get the disrespect? Or would it be there's going to be a point in time where he gets love. But we've seen it with Mookie Bets, we've seen it with, you know, other star, even Juan Soto right now, which is crazy. But then when a player's hot, that volatility, man, on the short term is one of the greatest things that happen in our sports cards community. And we've witnessed it firsthand because our, our old trading Habits would have favored Jordan Alvarez because we look at the long term saying, man, the scarcity five years from now, ten years from now. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh And realistically, that's not our trading patterns. We're day to day with the market regardless. And there are only select few of long term cards that stay in our stash. So, yes, I think it's cool because it's really defining over the years how our collecting habits and the way we see things have evolved. But I'm with you, Pete Crowe, Armstrong. That thing could be a 2, $3,000 card by the end of the year. We just don't know. Yu-Gi-Oh there you go. That's a good one. And I love that we're really Hyper focused on baseball. I think people are OG listeners, miss it because one of those things when I do go to shows and they, you know, they mentioned that they listen to pod, most of them are like, Yu-Gi-Oh I came to you guys because you're one of the few podcasts that talk about baseball a lot. Yu-Gi-Oh So it's usually our episode because I one-of-one shut up about baseball. Sorry. People love it. People love it. And it's kind of perfect ending to this episode because mine, pick one, is a two baseball cards. Two guys that just didn't play to expectations. You already talked about one of them. He's our hometown boy, Vladdy. Brutal season in terms of power. Less than 10. I. I went to the KC Royals Blue Jays game yesterday, actually. That was fun. We one-of-one three nothing. That was good game. I got to see Bobby Witt for the first time, so that was fun to watch. He's an. Every time he's up, you're like, oh, shoot. Like, is there men on base? You know, he's kind of. That kind of question. But luckily our bullpen, bullpen day pitchers did really well, so we held him off. But Vladdy, over three, all weak grounders. Like, he's hit swinging hard, but for some reason he just can't get the barrel on it. Like he got a single, actually one for three. And it was a swinging bunt that he got on. Like this is. That's how hard he hit the ball. It didn't pass the infield. Yu-Gi-Oh But one-of-one And then Kirk comes up. He's smashing. Kirk is mashing right now, like hitting into the gaps. Are you buying Alejandro Kirk cards? No. It's crazy. That's why this mark, I love, I love him though. He's a fan favorite. Fan favorite. Everyone loves him. Yu-Gi-Oh But in terms of the hobby, not the market value is not there, but one-of-one Vladdy, I have his Bowman Chrome first. Bowman Chrome blue Refractor. BGS9510 sold recently for 2200. So it's come down from 3K during the World Series run. 2200. Another guy, J Rod, Mariners also not playing as well as we thought they would. Just above 2000. So BGS 9 5, same grade. His blue Refractor as well. So both 150. Blue Refractor first, Bowman Chrome, both going for about 2K. Which one would you. That's the auto. Yep, both the autos. Okay, first, before I answer this, I know we're running long. Okay. I love Kirk. I think he's hometown favorite and stuff like that. I'm still mad about Gabriel Moreno. And like I said, you look at Moreno now, I'm telling you, man, he's. He is. This guy Moreno is the future. I'm telling you, in terms of catching, like, he's so good that he's so valuable. And you're going to really see his value in the next two, three years. I just had to spit that out because I was. I was. I'm still heartbroken by Toronto's move to let go of Moreno at the time they did. Going back to. Okay, I. I forgot about him. Batting.303 this year. That's crazy. He has 10 homers, five stolen bases, and on a 4.5 WAR. That means that's how effective he is with the pitching staff, with what he's doing defensively and how he contributes to the game. Right? So to me, it's like, that's Turkey man. Kirky, best pitch framer in the league. Not, not. Not in the context of, like, if you're comparing Gabriel Moreno to Kirk in terms of production, it's not even close. But anyways, going back to the original question, I just had to say that because I have a bias there. I wasn't happy with the move that Shapiro made. But what were we? What was the question at hand? Vladi versus Yu-Gi-Oh Which is crazy. I. One, I think J Rod gets no love, period. And part of it is he. He started slow again. But J Rod is the most consistent young superstar that we have in today's game. And when I say consistency, even though he's having a down year, his up year or down year, there's not really that much of a difference. He's still producing at elite rate. He's still. You look at his overall career war, at the age he's at, like 20, 26 or whatever he's at, he's on crazy trajectory still. So for me one J Rod is so underrated. I think he still hasn't showed his potential because his true potential is. 280, 40 home runs, 40 bags, 100 runs, 100 RBIs. That's his potential. We have yet to see it. We've seen glimpses of Vladi in the same then that's why Vladdy has that kind of like, oh man, this guy could be a superstar. He is a superstar. I don't care if he's hitting.270 with under 10 home runs. Dude, hitting is hard from a baseball context. They're still superstars in my book. Vladdy is an 80 hit tool. J rod bringing more of a well rounded game. I personally like J Rod more as an overall investment and an overall player. But like I said, a blue Vladi Auto is such a grail card for a lot of collectors and being a hometown boy too, looking at the liquidity of that and with these tax and tariffs that we're dealing with the U.S. canada, we're soon going to be like, hey man, Canada is our own marketplace. And forget about the US Marketplace. We might have to build a better marketplace in Canada. So to me Vladdy stands out more than J Rod personally. So I'm going to pick Vladdy still. But I think long term J Rod is a buy. Vladdy is a buy long term. Both good, good choices. What a homer. But you know what, it's a Vladdy Sepia for that reason too. So I'm not adding my bias. I'm still a believer. But yes, if you look at their stats this year, Vlad is barely gonna make a 1010 season if he can steal three more extra bases and three hit three extra home runs. He has seven homers, seven stolen bases and a 0.5 WAR. But a career WAR of 26.6? Crazy. And you compare that to J Rod, his career war is 25.2. He's gonna have a 2020 season though this year despite his lower batting average and he is two years younger than Vladdy. So goes with all your points that you mentioned about both players. But Yu-Gi-Oh Blue Jays fan, gotta go with Vladi in this case. All right, another great episode. We appreciate you guys. If you have any questions, just DM us at five Card guys or at Cards to the Moon. We'll have a brand new episode for you guys next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts and you can also connect with each of us on Instagram @5card guys. Or you can follow Hyung Integrity Sportscards or John at Tradeuces. You can also check us out@fivecardguys.com thanks again and hope to connect soon.