A Lawyers Take With John Isner Season 6 Ep. 14

Hello, and welcome to the Ball Card Show, The Esports Podcast. For The Esports Collector. I'm Jason Otero. I'm Gary LeMaster. This is season six, episode 14. As you are watching this, Gary is sailing, do-do-do-do-do, chilling on a boat, sailing. Is that Christopher Cross? Who does the sailing? I don't know. I know the song. I don't know who sings it. That sounds right. Christopher Cross sounds right. It's a yacht rock. Could be Steel Nash. I... I don't know. Long story short, I'm on a boat. Love is blind. I'm on a boat. Yes. I'm on a boat. Gary's on a boat. He's left us abandoned, but I have great news for you. Instead of a bearded man without a law degree, today we are interviewing a bearded man that is a lawyer. I think John Eisner is going to be joining us. I cannot wait to share this conversation with you. We talked about all of it. We talked about recent scandals, stuff that's happened in the hobby news over the last six months, things like that. Congressman writing a letter to the FTC. What does that even mean? We talked about how all these dramatic whining babies all over social media throw a fit and say, I'm going to sue every time somebody in the hobby says anything about them that makes them potentially look like they don't know everything. What does a lawyer actually think about all that kind of stuff? I can't wait for you to see that. Big John's doing a lot of stuff in cards and content, but a perspective from a lawyer that breaks it down and makes it simple. Oh, yeah. The monopoly conversation. He makes it so easy to understand what's happening there, what the outcomes could be. Definitely don't leave just because I was singing sailing. Stick around for this interview with Big John Eisner. You will not regret it. I promise you that. And a really good dude, too. Amazing dude. Yep. That's a fact. We try not to put people we don't like on the show. That's like one of the things we have control. You may have the biggest audience in the world, but if we don't like you, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. So you know, although like, you know, if Logan Paul wanted to come on and argue with us, that is publicity. We would probably, yeah, probably take that. I would pretend wrestling is real for five minutes. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Oh, it's as it's as real as his friendship with Ken Golden. Can you imagine those two actually hanging out without cameras? Let's call it what it is. These are two guys that sat at the blackjack table, and as they were hemorrhaging money that they will never feel, they're like, we should do this. But with collectibles, yeah, we should pump a card up to about 10 million over what it's worth. Here we are. Yep. So if anyone out there did not know we were going to go deep track Logan Paul, I think that's the first time we've done that in that direction. Gary, let's do one of our favorite segments before we get to this big John interview. Little show and tell. A little show and tell. Yeah. We get people asking for it. They go, yeah, let's show and tell for a while. So we're going to do some show and tell. You go first. Me go first. Yeah. You go first. You. You. You. All right. So this is a really interesting collection, and it had a little bit of everything. And when I say a little bit of everything, I'm not kidding. Everything from 1950s Swedish cigarette cars of like movie stars to ultra modern NBA stuff. But the most interesting stuff in the collection was the vintage soccer stuff. I'm going to show you three cards that were in this, and they're all Pele's. There were other guys too, Gert Möller, Johan Cruyff, Eusebio, like the goats from the 60s and 70s. But check this guy out, 1965 Swedish record journal, Pele and Bernd, and it's not Brent, it's Bernd Wallen in a SGC five, which is a really high grade on a hand cut card. What's the weight on that bad boy? Hold on. Let's go back. This one's not much, but these BGS slabs, these are door stoppers. These are door stoppers. The whole back of this one is in Swedish. I can't read anything on it, but it's 1974 Erbeverlag, Fussball, Pele in an authentic. And then this is the coolest one, in my opinion. This one's actually up in my eBay store. Look how big that slab is. That's cool. But that's a seven five. That's one of the highest graded copies of this card that exists across all platforms, all graders, 1966 Erl Fussball Pele. It's a really, really, really cool piece. So if you're into vintage soccer, go check out that 90s, 2000 store on eBay. Go find some really cool stuff. All right. I was at Lock City Cards in Hilliard, Ohio. Shout out, Ryan. Yeah. Popping in there. I had to do a good bit of sourcing, and I branched out outside of a 15 minute drive, which is not. Not your norm. Something that I do intentionally, but sometimes it's necessitated. And I saw this 1932 Bulgarian Babe Ruth Max Schmeling in a 6.5. Now, I've sold this card before. I did consignment in Pittsburgh at the Pittsburgh show. I don't know what you're laughing at. Your arms are short. So when you wanted to bring it up to the thing, you had to bring your mouth all the way to the side of your mic because you couldn't get past it. And it was just funny to me. I don't think that's true. I don't think. Okay. Well, that's what happened. So I was just chuckling at that. That's okay. You go ahead. Really cool card. Tell the story. I'm making mental note, and I'm prepared for the rest of this episode. I sold this before in Pittsburgh at the Washington PA show when Gary booked this Roach Motel and then a Roach Airbnb. But I moved it raw pretty quickly. It was on one of those super thick acrylic screw downs. And the buyer and myself, we were both like, listen, neither one of us want to see what happens if this thing gets opened. So the freezer. It's staying here. Put it in the freezer if you're going to do that. And hopefully don't draw any moisture. I don't recommend trying it, but technically it's supposed to work anyway. Saw this. It was in a 6.5. Now the price tag that was on this in a 6.5 was a no brainer to me. But this is a card that at an LCS is not like the Ruth from the 30s that everyone is looking for. It's not liquid. It's not super liquid. However, the sell through rate's pretty decent on eBay. So I looked on there. I was like, no brainer. This is just a really cool card. And in a 6.5, it is a Ruth from 1932. So I picked it up and then Ryan goes, hey, if you like that, how would you like the rest of the set? And I'm thinking, oh man, he's going to say a number and I'm going to want it, even though this is not what I'm trying to do right now. But this is really cool. And he brings out a box. He threw a number out for the rest of the set, which was just a no brainer. He clearly wanted me to buy it and he's like, oh yeah, by the way, it has the original checklist with it. This is just awesome. Obviously. Oh, that's really cool. You didn't tell me about that. Yeah, I know. I can't read any of it, but it's it's pretty cool. It has original checklist and included with it. The guy that walked in with it was like a true collector. Here's an original ad photo from the Bulgarian cigarette company in 1930 is just he is just really giving some glory to that cigarette. This is how I run the 400 for gold, baby. This is the secret. Tobacco is good for everyone. They say we're, you know, obviously, you know, if if YouTube's listening in, that was satire. That was satire. But some other cool stuff here. I'll show you somewhere. So these have some similarities with like the sportscaster. So here's the set whole set. They're all mini, you know, tobacco size cards. And they'll have like Olympians, tennis players, soccer players, similar to like sportscaster. But like one of the other big ones in there, I'll show you real quick. So like, here's the Walter Hagen from 1932. And all these are in pretty good shape. That's what I thought when I saw him. I was like, those look good. Yeah. If you don't know who Max Schmeling is, he was a really famous boxer. He has several fights with Joe Lewis. And they played up this America versus not America regime, especially with the time frame. Obviously, 30s and 40s, even in the 50s, in the adventure gum cards, there were they were playing it up like Indiana Jones. I'll just say like that. Good guys. Good guys. Little fun fact about this. Joe Lewis was obviously treated terribly. He was ripped off by promoters, treated unfairly. Max Schmeling was like written up to be this arch nemesis of his. And my understanding is when Joe Lewis passed, Schmeling paid for a lot of funeral costs and travel and everything for everybody. So cool relationship later, Charles Lindbergh, random deep track off of that story. But there's all kinds of middle school book report about Charles Lindbergh and his kidnapped child. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, OK. Yeah. Here's my favorite part. And then I'll be done. I just appreciate seeing how much somebody else appreciated the set. Yes. Took a time to translate the writing on the back of the roof so that the collector himself could appreciate what was on the back of that car. That's cool. So, yeah, it was just a really fun pickup. Now moving this stuff, I'll have the roof in showcases if it makes it through this first weekend of shows. It goes right to eBay. It's probably where it's going to sell. And then I've got a guy that might be a buyer on the set that really likes unique stuff like this one. It's complete and good shape. And if he wants to grade some of them, he can. But if he doesn't take them, then there's some fun stuff available. I'll probably want to go really, really cool set and a really cool story. So those are the things like what you just said, I think is really important. And we've had a few people in the discord say similar things, like one of the coolest things about this hobby is really seeing what other people are actually passionate about. Yeah. Not what they're trying to flip. Not the shiny thing, but like something that somebody took, obviously, weeks, days, months of their life to collate and curate and bring together to translate the back of a card so that they could appreciate what it said. That's really cool. The person who sold that probably felt like kissing their cards goodbye. Right. That's true. Which, by the way, that video from a couple of weeks back, people really they're they're a fan of the guy that kissed his card. Yeah. I don't know if you saw that. I mean, that's awesome. I just, I, well, intimacy frustrates you. And I don't like the way you said that. I was so it was such a loaded way of phrasing that, that I knew it was going to strike a nerve. I am happily married. And you know what? If I had to punch this camera to save my life, I'm a foot away. I'm not going to lie. You were right about it. I like being the bully. I don't like being bullied, but I'm telling you right now. Yeah, that's true. Still didn't reach it. And I do have short arms. But but but guess what? It's worked out for me whenever I have to bench press. That's about all I got going for you. Short arms, you know, bench press. I'm done talking about my insecurities now, but you got me on that one. I'm a little off kilter. Next week, as you listen to this, we have no show this Saturday, the 11th, 11th. Gary is on a boat. As we said, I will be enjoying some time with the family next week. We're going to be in Cincinnati at Eastgate. The week after that, we'll be in Cincinnati at Northgate. How many gates are there? I don't know. But if they keep putting out big shows, we'll be there. It's one of our favorite cities to sell cards in, to buy cards. So make sure to hang out with us there. You know what time it is, Gary? Is it time to go to Delaware, Ohio? Yeah. Yeah. Why don't you send them up there, Gary? I always send them up. You always send them over. Let's go. Hey, we're going to go up to Delaware, Ohio right now. Keith Newhart is going to drop some wisdom on us in Shop Talk. Hi, this is Keith at Newhart Cards, and this is Shop Talk. This week, we got a really good question from our Discord channel. So let's talk about that. Someone asked, hey, I have the opportunity to buy an existing shop. Do I go ahead and take the plunge by buying that existing shop, or do I start my own from ground up? So obviously, there's a lot of variables there. What's your cash position? What's the shop? That kind of thing. I would always say, hey, if you have the opportunity to buy an existing shop, I would start, and I would think about doing that. First of all, the level of inventory is going to be nice. You know, you start with an existing customer base. So in the allocations, now again, you know, the thinking is, the thought behind it is when I buy the shop, I get the allocations, which again, I know in the past has been for sure. I don't doubt that that's the kind of the fanatic speak that they will give you is yes, you will get their allocations. However, with everything changing with Fanatics, we're on our third sales rep in the last year. Things are changing with Fanatics. So just because they gave you an answer today doesn't mean that answer is going to be followed through next week. So I wouldn't base your purchase on what you think the allocations are going to be. Take a look at the customer status. You know, every shop's going to have a POS system, which is a point of sale system. You're going to be able to tell how many transactions there are daily, weekly, monthly. Take a look at that. Make sure they don't have one whale that's coming in and buying their allocations every week. Make sure there's a good customer base. Making sure the singles are priced appropriately. Make sure that the person that you're buying the shop from, you know, has an understanding of how much inventory they want. What's their, you know, what's their cost of goods, that sort of thing. And rent and utilities and have an idea there. So everybody wants to start their shop, you know, from the ground floor and build it up. but I think that's going to take $50,000 to $100,000 before you open the door. You buy an existing shop, the ownership can take a day, you switch over, you open the door, you turn the sign on and you have existing customer base. So not an exact answer, but I think something to think about. So this is Keith at Newhart Cards and this has been Shop Talk. Alright, thanks Keith. Appreciate that so much. Just a quick reminder, if you are not on our Discord Discord, go there now. Follow the Linktree Linktree? Follow the Linktree? Did I just say like the Facebook? Is that what just happened? No, I think you did it properly. Go to our Linktree? You don't follow a Linktree. No, but you go to the Linktree to click on the different places that you would like to go. And then we have Ask an LCS is one of the channels and Keith does videos and comments in there if you have any questions for an LCS owner. It's been doing this a minute. It is time. The wait is over. Very excited. Big John left no stone unturned. Answered things honestly, authentically, and in a way that was actually helpful for a lot of us to understand. So let's head over to this interview with Big John Eisner. Well, ladies and gentlemen, the moment is here. Been excited about the whole episode. John Eisner, Big John's Cards in the Ball Card Show. Thanks for having me, man. This is a big deal for me because I've dealt with you guys for so long, but we've never sat down and had a true one-on-one conversation. So I love this. What I like most about you is that Gary wishes he had your beard. I think that's one of them. He wishes he could grow a real man's beard. And if he could, it might be like Big John's. And the fact that he's not here to defend himself makes it so much better. That's what you get on vacation. You go on vacation, I make fun of you. That's the rules. I don't make the rules here. John, I ran into at a card show. We were trying to figure out probably about a year and a half ago. Small little local, probably 30-40 table show. Maybe 50. I can't remember exactly. But ever since then, we've kind of touched base. And one of the things that I really respect about John is his approachability. And he's a really warm person to talk with about cards, which is a little bit rare in this space at times. Somebody raise your right or you found your way. I would say somebody's probably pretty proud of how you interact. I think my mom would be pretty proud. I was raised by a single mom and she was definitely one of those people who was like, you put out what you get back. What goes around comes around. That's what I've always taken to heart. I think there's a unique part in this story that you're going to be sharing. And that's the fact that as you've grown this card business, you have other things going on to the point where you practice law. I don't know too many guys that practice law and then also just about every weekend are hoofing it like the rest of us to all over the Midwest to shows and doing a lot of content and the stuff that you're doing. If you wouldn't mind, just give us a story. How'd John get into cards? How did it go from a hobby to a business? I can't wait to bug you with legal questions like everybody does. It's like owning a truck. Once you own a pickup truck, everybody needs your help to move furniture. Once you pass that bar exam, anybody that knows you is expecting everything on the free. I'm going to do that too. Tell us your story. How'd you get into the space? How did it become a business? At the top, I get to do what every attorney will ever do when they come on a podcast and talk and that is give you a little disclosure that says, Hey, this is not legal advice and we are just talking as buds. That's what I always do with everyone. I do it even to my mom. I'm not being your attorney right now. I'm being your son. I can still remember honestly when I first got into cards. It was 2003, 2004. It was the LeBron hype. As a kid from West Virginia, his hometown wasn't very far from me. He was kind of like, I think what Joe Burrow is now to my hometown because Joe is only about 40 minutes away from where I live and that's Parkersburg. He lived in Athens. LeBron was that guy for me growing up. I remember just ripping a ton of 03, 04 tops, but that was back when you could get it for a couple bucks a pack. It was great. I still have, it's in, it's actually in my safe. I still have the first LeBron card I ever pulled. I've kept it this whole time and it was in a binder. It's in terrible shape, but I love it. I'll never get rid of it. Fast forward to 2019, I started to dabble again. I left it for a while. I went to college and law school and kind of lost touch with cards. Then I came back and I don't remember what it was. I saw someone's video on Facebook and it was, it was a pack. It was Pac-Man. That's who it was. It was Pac-Man and he was ripping. I thought, man, this is so cool. Like he's just doing this. So if you, if you go into the archive of big John's cards, 24 YouTube channel, you can find that there are some old big John's cards videos hidden in there from where I started doing that. And it wasn't very successful. I wasn't, I wasn't very good at it, but then in 2023 I started to focus more on like singles. I thought this is going to be like a fun little side gig. And to be honest, my job is very stressful a lot of the time. And so I did this as a, just a fun little thing in 2023. I believe it was my wife surprised me with a trip to Chantilly that, that card show. That was like the first big card show I went to. And I still remember it. It was before I bought any other singles. I spent 200 bucks. I gave myself $200. And I said, if I can't make money with $200, I'll never do this again. I'll be done. That was how I did it because I wanted to have an approach. And you know how it is. Like it can be daunting whenever you start this and you can get down a rabbit hole pretty quickly and get in some bad shape financially. So I really limited myself. And from that $200, I grew what is now, you know, big John's cards, 24. And now fast forward to today, I've transitioned it to a business and you're right. It's really hard to balance a five day work week and then go to shows and do all of these things. And over the course of the last 12 months, it's really started to get bigger, especially probably the last four months has it started to grow. Like content has gone up. Uh, I just partnered with a card shop here. Uh, I've taken over all of their stuff. It's been growing. I know I just laid all of that out for you. Uh, and it was a long winded thing, but that's really kind of the glimpse into it. You and I, so I think I was like 2018 to 2019 and we kind of landed in the same spot. Similar thing. I saw somebody ripping a box, but my frame of reference was like the way I opened cards when I was younger. And so seeing somebody just peel through pack after pack after pack, I was like, Whoa, what's going on? And I texted my buddy Gary. It's like, dude, you know what I'm thinking about getting back into thinking about getting back into cards. And he was like, he was like, so fired up at the possibility that I might, I mean, fast forward now, like it was a good decision, but that timing was really interesting. I think, um, I would call it a bit of an advantage. I think when anybody hears you say you started like pre COVID with stuff, there's an assumption that we all made a bajillion dollars. Some of us just kind of were getting back into the space just in time for all that to happen. So while we started to see how money was moving in the space, it's not like we were dangerous with our knowledge yet, right? Like we kind of knew what we were looking for. We were hoping we could find an eBay comp. We weren't even talking about you know, card ladder, one 30 point, you know, projected values. We were just trying to stay in our lanes. Right. Um, and working through the boxes we had to see what do I have in here? Have I done or any of these cards worth anything that I've kept all these years? Um, but I want to hear a little bit more. So you're saying in the last four months, especially you ramped up with the content with the shows and then a partnership with a local shop. What's that going to look like? 740 Hobby is a shop in Marietta, Ohio. Uh, I have partnered directly with them. I am now their sports guy. So all of the sports cards that come in 740 Hobby are coming through me. I'm buying, selling, I'm doing all of the deals at 740 is now doing. Uh, and the reason that we, we came together to do this is one Cody who owns the shop has become a very, very good friend of mine. We are actually in the process dropping later this month will be the first piece of content for our new content channel, which is called wrestling with the hobby. And it's a focus on not only being able to grow yourself in the hobby, but also we both love professional wrestling. So it's going to be a mix of both things. Um, so that's why we came up with the weird name wrestling with the hobby and it just, it clicked as soon as, as him and I got together and I'm sure it's a lot like how you and Gary are, right? Like it is, it just works and that's how Cody and I are. We're growing this whole thing. Um, and so, yeah, I've, I've just taken over that section. It's really exciting. It's a different thing and it is a true partnership. He doesn't work for me. I don't work for him. It is a partnership. Nice. So that's a lot going on. Good thing that you don't have a whole lot to do during the week. When you look at this last six months, what, you know, this is, this is not a question I had mentioned might be discussed, but I think it's, I think it's a good one because I'm hearing very similar trajectories, especially the last six months. I think you and I similarly are seeing like a lot of things happen, but I also think that there just seems to be in general when we set up at these midsize shows, they don't even have to be the biggest, like 200 plus there's an energy right now in the single space that again, my context is similar to yours. We're talking three to seven years, however you want to look at it, but it's different right now than what we've seen before. What, what do you think is happening and what do you attribute? I think it's twofold. One, I think fanatics coming in and I know fanatics is one of those kind of very polarizing names and in sports cards, right? But it's true that they have done a lot to put eyes on cards and they've spent a ton of money getting athletes. I mean, who, if you would have asked me in 2018, if Tom Brady would own a card store, I would have laughed in your face. Like, I'd be like, why would he be in this space? You know? Right. And that's where we are now. So I think it's, it's also acceptance, right? And that's, it kind of goes to like how my love for professional wrestling, like it used to be super weird before like the attitude era of WWE, you were, you were a dork if you liked wrestling. And then I like Razor Ramon. That's how big of a dork I was. Razor was the man, dude. The bad guy. Yeah, I like that. And then come stone cold, the rock mankind, all these guys start coming in and it's like, wait a second. Wrestling's cool. Same thing with sports cards. Same things with Pokemon. I mean, Pokemon, when I was a kid, like it was fun to play, but you also kind of did it on the side. Like, so no one would see you at recess playing. Right. And then when you're like, Oh no, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. It's like when people say, I don't listen to Nickelback, but then they actually like a song or two of theirs. It's the same thing. Exactly. There's a reason they know this. Yeah. So I think it's acceptance. And then also just the focus on really getting it in front of people's eyes. Yeah, I would agree. You know, I think one thing that fanatics is doing that I don't think people with businesses like ours that are just trying to scale a business. I don't think we realize I referenced it as a compounding effect. There's going to be a compounding effect with marketing because their quality of marketing has only raised the bar on exposure. And what you're saying is especially true, you know, fanatics fest, while it's not a traditional card show, they're not trying to make it that it is an experience that gets collectors closer to the athletes than they'll ever be. And I can't even imagine, like, I know that we have our criticisms, but when it comes to marketing, it's a tip of the hat for everything that they're doing. Do people realize what is about to in my opinion happen with soccer cards on the tail end of this year? Like fanatics is about to shove their resources in the World Cups in town. It's during fanatics fest. It's in New York City. This is an opportunity because that's where they're most connected. There's a reason they picked that city, you know, for this event. I'm 100% with you. I think it has become cool. It has become a little more mainstream and that makes people feel comfortable too sometimes, right? But I don't know about you, but I feel like especially in the last three months, the show scene, it's hard. You have to not have cards or have the wrong prices to kind of have a bad show right now. You are a thousand percent right. I always find it a little bit and I try to, I never push advice on people. I don't like doing that. I don't think that it's respectful of someone else's business. When people come to me, that's the first thing that I say is like, know what you got, right? And know the industry to a point that people come to you and say, that guy has what I want. And that's when people, and I've seen it with your guys's booth, my booth, you know, all of these people will come in and be like, I came to you first. And it's because you have the good stuff and you treat people with respect. Like that's the crazy thing. You wouldn't think that this was an issue, but unfortunately in this space it can be. And I think a lot of the time is people, I mean, this is people's livelihood. So they take it very seriously and rightfully so, but sometimes overly serious. And I think that's what, I think that's the issue sometimes. If it's not fun to buy cards, why would I buy them from you? If you make an unpleasant experience. And what surprised me as I went full time into this space was I didn't expect it to give me a competitive advantage to be nice. I thought it was a baseline. You're right. Now, in fairness, you and I, in the eyes of some people that are fighting that battle to be positive, we're the new guys. And we'll probably always be in their minds the new guys, regardless of the fact that you and I have probably set up at more shows in the last year than they have over the last five, but that's okay. I think that there's a sentiment with that and I want to lean into something because I think like similar wavelength here, there can be a scarcity mindset with dealers. And the moment your mind shifts to, oh no, do I have enough? And then am I going to get enough? And is there enough to go around? It, for me, that will tank my attitude, tank my sales, tank my interactions. Like what do you say to the dealer that's just nervous because they see this flood of growth and they want to make sure that they're not going to get lost in the mix? Because I think that's kind of what some people, I think here's the easiest way to do it. Right. And I say easiest, but that word is probably a little bit too open and broad right there. But in my opinion, the best way to do it is don't just focus on what happens at a show. Like people beat themselves up so much. I've had bad shows. I have like a good example. I love Pittsburgh card shows. I love them. Those guys, they do a great job and they push and push and push price. I've never seen somebody with more ability to get people riled up at shows, like get them pumped and ready to buy than that guy right there. And so Sunday I was in Castle Shannon and it's a TCG show. Like that's what it is. And I wasn't having a good day, wasn't having a good day. And so instead what I did was I posted on my Facebook and said, Hey, if there's anybody in Castle Shannon or in Pittsburgh that does sports come see me. Like I'm, I'm bored. I like, just come, come hang out. Right. Okay. I bought no joke. The next two cards that came up maybe 10 minutes later were a Patrick Mahomes, rookie auto and a Josh Allen gold to 10 rookie. Like, yeah. So that I think use that availability because that's the best ability, right? Telling people that I am constantly here for you and I want you to come in. That's what gets people coming back. And that's why content was so important for me was just putting my face, you know, my face out there. And it's great. That's why it's great for you guys. Like people come up and say, I love your show. Right. And so my biggest piece of advice is don't let one show beat you up, get out there, put your face back out there. You know, you will eventually people are going to go, I know that guy. And that's, what's going to get the ball rolling. Yeah. I'm gonna ask you a question and I want you to be super direct with me. Am I going to regret not taking some level of interest in TCG five years from now in my business as like an active, I think you will regret it for the next six months. Oh, I can live with six months. Yep. So I have a, I have a, I attribute this to my relationship with seven four Oh, and that is, I have learned a lot about that space. I am in no way an expert. I can't name more than 10 Pokemon, right? Sure. But I listened to their insights because they have done this as long as I have done sports cards. So I know that they're experts in this. Cause I, I assume, you know, I think I'm a pretty good expert in it when they tell me that this is what is going to happen. It's just going to go back and forth, back and forth. I expect that that's the truth. There's a projection in the TCG market coming up that the next drop is actually going to be where the bubble bursts, but then it's going to come back like it always does. I think we're in such a lull right now with sports cards, like it's booming. Don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of flusher where people are going over to Pokemon. Absolutely. And it's a lot like the shoe game. Remember when shoes were just being pushed and pushed and pushed? That's what cards are like, man. And when a one area drops off, people run to the next. And I think that's where you're going to be pumped that you stayed in sports cards, because in the next six months, these people are going to run off and they're going to say, this is what I do. And we're already seeing it. You sitting still, you're gonna be like, I'm good because now you've, you now own the market. Yeah. I, it makes me, um, I'm very interested because I know for most LCS operations, it's become a necessity. Your fanatics direct accounts aren't offering the type of margins that panini distributors are giving, not even close to that. However, you can buy all the retail you ever want in the world. They'll let you have all the blasters and megas that you want to get. Um, but the margins aren't quite there. So you're seeing more shops that have been like, we're only sports cards diversify. And they're saying, thank goodness I did this. Thank goodness I made that shift because I was underestimating the power of that market. Now it is hot right now, like you're saying. And, um, I think there's a similar theme between sports card people that don't stick around in the scene and maybe what's happening in some of the TCG. And I know this for a fact, we can spend one minute out of 60 minutes talking about TCG. That'll be the thing that everybody blows up the chat over, right? It'll probably be it. But I think it's because there's this deep belief that whatever I buy today is worth more in a week. And I think I don't have to know what I'm doing, but if I trust the dealer, then as long as Pokemon or one piece or whatever, it keeps doing what it's doing. I'm golden. This is like me buying a GameStop stock back in the day. This is like that alt coin on crypto. It can't go down from here, baby. And I think we get sucked into that fast money mindset. One of the things Gary and I say is there's money in this space and there's a lot of money in this space, but there's not easy money in this space. Not if you're going to do things ethically. Not if you're going to do things ethically, which is a great pivot. Give myself a high five here. I want to talk to John Eisner, attorney at law. Is that all right? Now I learned this this year and please tell me if I'm an idiot, but there's a difference between an attorney and a lawyer people's. Okay. I have heard it's not true anymore. Okay. Yeah. That, that used to talk to me like I'm an idiot. So I can understand the thing where people's people's law degrees were different and people's their ability, you know, different bars. It was, I guess the easiest way to put it is there were kind of different levels to what you were, but anymore, now there's things like what's called the universal bar exam, which covers like 30 States now. So if you take that and pass it, you can then, if you got the right enough score, you can then transfer into other States. It's essentially become just a universal thing. I, even as an attorney, I use lawyer all the time. I don't, there's, I think I was, I think it might've been you who I saw say something about this, or maybe you said it to me or something. And I, I went to a couple of people cause I was like, I've never heard this. I want to, I want to get the information. So I talked to some older attorneys and they all told me that used to be a thing. And now no one, no one does it anymore. So now y'all just get your black belt in Taekwondo basically. Yeah. So that's the, that's the big thing is like really most States don't have apprenticeships anymore. They still have, you know, you have to take the bar exam, you have to go to law school, you have to do all the same things over and over again. So I'm pretty much it's interchangeable anymore. Okay. All right. So with, with that in mind, I needed to know, I needed the answer. I just needed to know it. I was like, I've never been hesitant to call someone either an attorney or a lawyer. And now all of a sudden I'm like, I don't know what to call. Smart person. You pass the bar. My clients say both and I'm okay with it. All right. All right. So I want to lean into a space that it seems like the only time somebody that practices law has brought in to the card conversation is this thing happened. What the heck does it mean? Cause nobody knows. Um, but I think there's other layers to this, all kinds of stuff that's happening in this space on a regular basis. And I just want to look at like the last six to eight months, we can look at a little bit of the news cycle stuff, some patterns that I've noticed. And I just want your take, like, is this a thing? What does this mean legally for people? What are ramifications for this type of stuff? Or is this like, that makes for a good clip, but that's not really rooted in any kind of reality. All right. So kind of like a factor crap thing. And you just, you just take on the first thing I want to talk about is a word that has become more popular in the last year than any other word in this space. And that is the word monopoly. So I would love for you, you know, obviously there was a letter written by a Congressman to the SEC, um, or federal trade commission, um, FTC, and just expressing that they saw this consolidation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, using the word monopoly does not necessarily mean anything's happening, but so what is a monopoly and what kind of action takes place? If someone can actually make the argument that this truly is happening. I like to use the example. I use, I call it the four quarters example. Okay. Pretend that you have four quarters sitting on your desk right now. And so one of them is PSA, one's Beckett, one's SGC and one CGC, right? So what you do there is you start going, okay, so there are all four different entities. Well, PSA bought SGC. So take the SGC coin and stack it on the PSA, right? Because they've now become one entity. So you have three left. Well, PSA bought SGC. So you take the SGC coin, you stick it on the top and you go, well, wait a second, but now we only have two different sections. And one of them owns 75% of the real market. That's where you get into the idea of what is a monopoly. It's when an entity owns so much of a sector that no one can be competitive within it anymore. And I truly actually do believe that PSA should be considered a monopoly anymore based off of two things. One, not just their acquisitions, because I'm a firm believer, and this is obviously just my personal take, not a legal take, but I'm a firm believer that just because you acquire something doesn't make you the most powerful being. However, it does when you strip down the other two. So that's what I have an issue with PSA. Interesting. So jump in there. Oh man, Rob, I want you to finish your thoughts. So PSA. So when PSA acquired SGC, the first thing that they did is they promised that they would not change SGC. We learned that that wasn't true. They took a lot of things from SGC and they were open about it. They started to do the same thing when they acquired Beckett. And that's when Congress started to get involved and say, wait a second, because PSA's only argument is, well, we only acquired them. They're still competitors through and through, but that's not true when you try to eliminate them. And the reason that companies do this is because it essentially creates a look as if we just had our four quarters, right? It looks like there's still four quarters because they still exist, but we all know if you're within that sector, they're not the same thing. So really you're starting to deal with a quarter, a penny, a penny, and another quarter. That's the issue that you've got. Okay. I like that. Penny, penny. Okay. That makes more sense. So when I think about the recent dialogue around Beckett, so like we bought Beckett too. And immediately, like, I don't know if you know this, we have an ongoing thing with Jeff Wilson, where if Beckett's grading submissions are up at the end of April compared to November, we have to wear Cards HQ merch and he gets to come on the show and glow. However, if they are down from November, we are able to interview him and ask him any question we want to ask him. So we'll see what happens with that. I did notice this though. After that letter was pinned, the cycle of content and what was being said about Beckett changed drastically. The first write-up spoke of a legacy brand, more of that boutique, blah, blah, blah, which we heard exactly the same thing with SGC. This letter comes in and now all of a sudden, you're hearing stories that are just pointless. Like, I was at the Dallas Card Show and you won't believe the line for raw reviews for Beckett. Well, no crap. Nobody's going to wait six months on a PSA submission. And if you think this might be a 10, then maybe I get over a nine in the room here, right? And it's lined out the door or all these reports of, I just had this and Beckett's about to, Beckett's about to, Beckett's about to. It was a very different conversation a few months back when this was just like, hey, we just want to restore this legacy brand. And now it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Is it imperative of collectors to communicate the viability of Beckett? Like SGC, it's kind of hard for them to make the argument, but from what you're saying, if I understand this correctly, it really matters to the potential of any kind of action down the road that Beckett appears to be on its own legs. Absolutely. Because we've seen other cases in the past where companies have purchased another one. And there was, if I remember correctly, there was a belief when I think it was AT&T purchased, I want to say T-Mobile, but I, or maybe Verizon, I can't remember. AT&T was purchasing one of them and it got blocked. And the reason it ended up getting blocked is an injunction got filed. And a lot of it was because AT&T's plans were to strip the company down and to make it a shell of itself. And that was a big argument that people started to make. And that's exactly what's happening right now, or at least was happening. Because we saw it with SGC where they essentially said, we're not going to touch it. And then it became, well, we're going to roll it back a little bit. Then it became, we're going to take their graders. It just kept going and going and going. And I think that that's the one thing though, that people aren't understanding about this examination of the monopoly is everybody wants to focus on the purchase that PSA had of Beckett. But also within that letter, the congressman called on the FTC to also look at the purchase of SGC, which people forget. They think it's just the two entities. That's going to look a lot worse. That's going to look a lot worse. And the reason I'm going to assume that the congressman did that, and let's be open and honest here too. It wasn't a congressman that came up and wrote this letter, right? He was not deeply convicted about this. Or maybe, or maybe he got into Pokemon or he He had the original one piece. He's like, I need this stuff back yesterday. He's like, I can't wait. These wait times are ridiculous. Probably V friends or something like that. You know, I bet Gary, Gary V is one of the first people that ever saw my videos and DM me and said, Hey, I like, I like what you're doing. Keep going. And I still to this day talk to Gary V through Instagram. So that's cool. That's cool, man. The big thing with this is somebody got in his ear, obviously, and it's probably constituents said, look, this is what's going on. And whoever did it was very, very intelligent about it because they said, make sure that you know about SGC too, because they can hide what they were starting to do with Beckett. It's not that hard, right? But they already did it to SGC. So I'll be, I will be most interested to see about that portion and how much it impacts this discussion. So a Congressman writes a letter to the FTC. So what, what happens with that? Because people thought that meant that tomorrow, the next day collectors was going to be like, Oh, we're sorry. Here's your cards, everybody. Right. Like what, what does that letter initiate? Is anything guaranteed to happen out of that? Is there a pro like, is there a lengthy process? I'm sure there is like everything else, but what, what does that look like? This letter's written. Is it still being thought about or is it old? The way it works is somebody makes an inquiry to the FTC. They say, Hey, something's going on. The FTC can do one of two things. And although it's not the same, it kind of mimics the Supreme court a little bit. Cause in the Supreme court, everyone thinks that when you appeal something, the Supreme court automatically hears that case, but that's not true. Supreme court looks at the merits of the case first and decides whether or not it even has the ability to move forward. The FTC is modeled like that where it will look at the bones of it and say whether or not an investigation should occur. So that's the first step. Step two is the investigation starts. Now this can deal with like interviews or a testimony. It can deal with asking for records, you know, anything of the sort, they do an investigation. And then a couple of different things can happen. One, there's no findings. They just say it's not a monopoly or at least not one on that. We have found it to be yet to, they can say it is a monopoly, but there's not a ton of, I'm trying to not a ton of manipulation or inability to compete. And then three, they can say there is a monopoly and here's what we're doing next. And that usually takes place in the form of either something like an injunction or fines fees. That's, I, I personally think that's probably the route we're going is that all of this is going to be okay and they're going to allow it to happen. Maybe some fines or fees happen, but the injunction, the injunction portion, the actual stoppage of the purchase is going to be what is actually difficult. Because we're dealing with, I mean, we're dealing with real, you know, real monopoly slash antitrust slash competitive advantage. You know what I mean? This is where we're starting to deal with stuff that's beyond what most people think a monopoly or what looks like a monopoly is. Yeah. So we're, so an investigation being open. So let's say that it's option. They say, yeah, there's a monopoly here, but it's just fees. Okay. Let's say that it's that one where you're saying there's something going on here, but we're going to slap your wrist. It's not like we're going to stop the sale. The fact that this gets moved by the FTC to a point of investigation, does that set a precedent for this industry before something like this happens again? Or is it just completely a one-off? Like will it maybe give pause to some of the bigger money making plays like this? If it's an even investigator, do you need a ruling to have that precedent? That we are definitely going to find out. Cause my guess is, and this is just me guessing fanatics. Don't get mad at me. We may be headed towards that with fanatics. There's a lot of discussion on what Panini does next. And some of that discussion is them being bought by fanatics. So that may be, you know, that may actually happen, you know? Right. Exactly. Then we're like, you know, that's it. We may see this a couple of times in this space because let's be honest too. Like sports cards. Like when we were kids, sports cards were sports cards. Like they were fun. Right. But it wasn't, it wasn't this conglomerate. It is right now. And so with popularity comes corporate and that's what you're starting to see more and more. So the short answer is it doesn't set a precedent, but it can make companies think twice. And I think a lot of companies, if there ever is going to be that discussion on, you know, either them getting bought out or GameStop purchasing, you know, some of these companies, which is another discussion, but it will make them think twice on how they do the acquisition. Sure. So I think that you'll see, it will be cleaner next time rather than what they've done now. Yeah. And I think that's a healthy step forward. I think when these letters are written, obviously people are hoping for the best, but they're usually expecting to just start some framework of structure around in the future. We, we, you know, now what will be real interesting, this is my tinfoil hat theory is somebody got real hurt over the SGC deal. And they were the ones that helped figure this out. That would kind of be the chef's kiss on all of this. They got it rolling. Like, Hey, yeah, they just did this again, but don't forget to, the fact that that was in there, that was interesting to me. Yeah. So let's talk, let's get, let's take a route. Before we move on, I want to add in this to the other thing that can happen. Cause there is another option. So there's fines that can happen. There's the actual, you know, not even allowing those companies to merge, but there's also what they allow to do, which is structural changes within the company as well. So that can be a number. Give us the chance. Exactly. And that can be a number of different things. Like board seats are one of them, like putting Beckett and SGC and everyone like that on the board. Like these are things that we've seen in the past. So I think that something will occur, but I think that it's going to be a remedy that PSA can make and we'll probably be able to move forward with. But I wanted to make sure that that the listeners knew that too, is like there is another option. Yeah. And typically when you have an industry where all of a sudden there's this new liquidity, right. And big dollars move in, like, honestly, not to get political, but we're seeing some of that conversation around the housing market and some of these massive corporations that are not even in central Ohio. It's not even just a residential as Gary and I were looking at brick and mortars for the commercial space. Some of these places have purchased out strip malls and they stand to gain more leaving it vacant than offering it for a feasible price based off of the area square footage. So and now you have a similar conversation and dialogue happening on both sides of the aisle around this. You know what that sounds like, right? So I, you know what that sounds like? PSA buying their own slabs. Yeah. Yeah. Now the repack thing was really interesting to me because there were other things like that. The, the address associated with power packs through GameStop being in the same family, just with a different LLC. Like there's some things like that were like, wait a minute, that was shady. That wasn't an accident that took some intention. So I think there's pieces of that. You know, Gary says it like this. He's like, I think they just want to touch a piece of the life cycle of a car. They want all of it. And so until they can't, they're probably going to keep doing it. And this space has tons of liquidity. And guys like you and I are in a spot where we want our good cards graded. We want to buy PSA slabs. We want people to pay up for Beckett. We want people to pay if people paid up for like, if they paid up for, uh, for, Oh, let me think of one. Um, Oh, give me an, give me an old school. If they paid up for old school HGA slabs, I'm in like if, if the consumer will make that decision, the dealers will work with you on that. But then the dealers also have to pay strong on those slabs. And I don't see it happening without something bigger happening anytime soon. Let's talk about how petty people get in this space with content. You know, you've been making it a little bit. One thing for sure is whenever there's a new story, it's like, uh, just a swarm. And then everybody's just picking off each other's content and having reactions to their takes. Um, but one thing that I've noticed in this space of content, very different from anything else I've done content in is everybody just wants to sue each other. Anytime they say anything at all negative. So do we just have a bunch of sissies in this space that are just unable to take it? Or is everything worthy of a cease and desist? Like, like what's, what is that letter designed to do? What's it, what are the intentions of I'm going to send you a cease and desist because it's the new thing. And Gary and I, now that people know that we'll cover stories a little bit, people will reach out to us to give their take on something and then threaten, well, if you guys talk about this, just so you know, I got to sue. I didn't call you, bro. You called me. And I don't think you can do anything with that lawsuit. I've got some ideas, but you tell me like, from your perspective, one, am I, am I delusional that I'm seeing this happen in this space? And two, like, what is the cease and desist? What is it for? What is it not for? You know? And what, what, what can it do for people? You're right. This continues to occur more and more. And I'm going to be, I guess I'm going to sound like a bad guy here. Right. But I think it's a lot of it is coming from the, I don't know how to say this. Like the, the bros, like I think that's the best way to put it. Like these guys who have made content elsewhere and are coming into sports cards and they, you know, maybe they're a bigger content creator outside of sports cards. And when they've come in, they've just expected that they will be that here in an easy way, easy way to make somebody either one fearful or two kind of step away and allow you to gain power is to threaten to sue. Cause a lot of these guys, you know, I don't know how, most of these guys probably have their businesses set up like a sole proprietorship or whatever, but they don't have access to legal counsel. They don't know what's real. And so people threaten to sue simply because it creates fear. Like that's what it is. It's a fearful thing that people go, okay, well, this issue is not worth me getting sued because I don't want to pay an attorney or I don't want to do that. You know, whatever. And that's right. That's the right thinking. I get that. Now let's talk about cease and desist itself, right? The reason that those exist is essentially to warn someone that you are going to file if they don't comply with what you're asking them to do. A good example of this is like defamation, like, um, you know, to slander someone means to lie. But what does that actually mean legally? Well, you have to show that there's been some financial pain or some type of economic issue that's occurred or some type of real damage is what they usually call it within, you know, structures. They say damage. It can't just be like this person lied to hurt my feelings. It has to be this person lied and I lost $10,000 because a sponsor left my show. You know, it has to be stuff like that. The best thing for a cease and desist is just to say, Hey, what you're doing could get here or maybe it started to, and I'm going to tell you to stop before I go any further. And so essentially when Brad and Chad from Sigma Chi are chat GPT and a cease and desist letter, it's a warning of a warning. I mean the, so the best example of that in sports cards right now is Nintendo, like which, which has real attorney, you know, that's, that's where we're getting into real. Yeah. So I don't know how many TCG people that you have listening, but if you're a TCG person, please listen, stop using Pokemon logos in your stuff. Like I don't understand. So again, I don't do a lot of TCG. I'm starting to, but going to these shows, I've noticed one thing and it's stuff that I've never seen in sports cards. I have never seen somebody put some type of tops logo or panini, whatever into their banner or their business. Like I've seen businesses actually use different Pokemon in their logo. And I'm like, you, this is, you are obviously infringing on their copyright protections. And so now from what I'm hearing around that world is Nintendo is sending people to card shows and they're sending people to see who is infringing on their copyright, doing business record searches and sending them cease and desist. And I promise you, you should listen to them because they will sue you. They do not care. They have an army. Like they will sue you into oblivion. And I just, I don't understand why it became a thing in TCG, like why everybody thought that that was okay. But it's obviously not. And it's not even the last thing I'll say on this is there may be some like bad intention for some people being like, I'm going to sue you. Right. Nintendo has an obligation to sue you. In this case, they're protecting their copyright. And then the United States specifically, if you don't protect your copyright, you lose your copyright. That's the, that's why they're doing this is that they have to protect their copyright or they will lose it. And so they're going to continue to do that. They're going to continue to, you know, push these people. And they're, I'll be honest with you too. Like there's some really big vendors that I know in the TCG world that are using these logos. And I'm like, you're, I mean, they're, they're going to get crushed. Yeah. That's not a game worth playing. I, I know. So when, before I did exclusively cards, there was a window where I was doing cards plus I was an everything seller. I just have a knack for going to a random place, and stuff that's probably worth more than what I pay for. And I like flipping it. I always will. I'll be 80 years old at the flea market doing this. If I never sell another card, that's just who I am. But eBay does not play around with their Veros. So they essentially have certain brands that you can't just post. Now, a lot of times you won't know this because you found a boutique brand of clothing, blah, blah, blah. But they're on the list. And if you don't pull that down, it's for real, for real. I know that we had a conversation with a gentleman that had a bunch of IP Tiger Autos that were certed in the late 90s, early 2000s. And Upper Deck has repeatedly gone after him. Now, he's gone back and forth. Have you heard this story? He's gone back and forth with them about, I don't know where the status is on it now. But it's fascinating that they could leverage that when he's got an argument that this was already allowed to happen before, in their minds, this exclusive deal. So I know that in some cases, they don't play. But the one I want to circle back to is, it's really heavy within this content space. Specifically, not, I'm at a show and I think this about this person. It is. For example, if we do a podcast and all of a sudden, I was like, hey, Big John said this. And I just got to say, this is a terrible take. That's the stuff people are starting to lose their minds over. So one, there's no room for dialogue, which sucks for anybody wanting the content. But what crosses the threshold legally where a lawsuit carries weight? Are people just creating content about the space protected if they're like, hey, my job is to provide commentary to what was reported? Where does that land? Because there's this, if people that get mad, they want everybody to be afraid. And I'm just here for people that make good content, that are good people to say, I think a lot of this, you're fine. I don't think you need to worry too much, but what P's and Q's should they mind? I think with most of this stuff, a lot of it is going to be just driving traffic by saying X so that someone else can say Y. But the issue becomes when there's a difference between reporting the news, like the news and sports cards, versus giving your take on something that could lead to some legal issues. Which is where, so for instance, let's say, I don't know, actually, this is a good example. Remember back when, maybe two months ago, three months ago, when CT scanning started to come up real big about boxes. Well, imagine that you put out a report that you say, I have the information that shows that this huge breaker did that. And all of a sudden that becomes a real thing. People are talking about it. People are pushing it. They're losing business because of it. Well, if you're wrong, you might be on the hook for something. You've got to be careful in that kind of case. Now, if you're giving and just, you're saying like, this is what's being said, you're probably going to be okay. But if you're the one that is saying, this is what it is, we're hearing all this stuff out there. It's got to be- They must be doing it so they can do this. And that is where you start to get into trouble. And again, this is not legal advice. This is, as a content creator, this is stuff that I think about. It's stuff where I'm like, I have to be careful because we live in a litigious society. That is what we live in. And even if somebody doesn't have the best ability to sue, doesn't mean they're not going to. And that can waste your time and your money. So for me, I'm one of those people, I think it's better safe than sorry. You got to be careful. But if you're reporting stuff, that's different than you saying this happened, it's that guy right there. And that's where you get the different breakdowns of what can be an issue versus what's not. Now, the other thing that we keep seeing is guys using other guys' content. That's the other thing that we keep seeing, like reacting to, and they take a little snippet and they say, I'm going to sue you. It's probably not going to happen because there are actually acts that focus on YouTube and things like that, that allow you to do a reaction to something. And it's because you take that little piece of content and you manipulated it to make it your own. And I can't remember if it was, if I had heard, maybe somebody used like Jeff's stuff. I can't remember what it was. One big creator said something about it. And speaking of which, I tried to debate Jeff. I want to put that out there. Oh, there's a long list, dude. Well, he put it out there. He put it out there and said that he wanted to debate somebody. And I got into this big Twitter war. People thought I was trying to big time them. And that's not what I was trying to do. My whole point, I had posted on there. I'm an attorney. I argue in court every day. I have all of these national awards and debate. I want to be the guy who debates you. Because let's face it, Jeff is really smart. He is a very, very smart guy. And I think if he wanted a real debate, he would do it with somebody who knows how to do it like that. That's the thing. And he totally ignored me. Pick somebody else. That's OK. But here's what we're going to do, John. I hate I hope I hate hoping doom upon Beckett because I hope we're wrong. I would love to see Beckett become what is capable of. But if we win, I will make certain that John Eisner, attorney at law, sent in this listener question. And if it is not too much and is not a breach of agreement, I will video your butt in for that, for that talking point. So have one loaded in the chamber ready, ready to ask. And I will do everything in my power to make that happen. They go through my boy, Big John, like that. But I do know that there have been some people that have expressed interest and even gotten some back and forth like we have that just ended up getting ghosted. I got so many messages were like, well, good luck with that. But Jeff's staying in contact. I mean, he had a meeting with Beckett. So he's that. Yeah, I mean, as a person, as a person, like I like Jeff as a person. I haven't had that experience. I have never had a conversation where it wasn't just. I just think he is the ultimate content guy. And I think some of the stuff he says is either he's way out there or he's doing it to get a reaction. And so. Yeah, I think he's didn't know that he was doing it to get a reaction early on. I think the people that want to ask more questions were like in that first couple of years, you said a lot of interesting things. Now I think it's a transition. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little more that way. And he's bringing in some people like Scotty B and some others that in the space and the content space just have a reputation or like that credibility and knowledge in the space and all that. So enough tootin Jeff. We're not going to do that. Not on this show. We got we got an active major going on. One last question on the legal side of things. And then we'll wrap up with the one we asked everyone. But as we kind of look at this big picture, the last six to eight months, it's been a pretty big news cycle. Like if you look at the last five years, then you look at the last eight months, a lot's happened in the last eight months. What do you let's let's fast forward two years. All right. Whatever's currently going on is is processing whatever procedure may be taking place as played out. Do you anticipate regulations coming down the pike for this industry like actual regulation? And what things do you think will get pressed on? If so, I personally believe that. And I'll just briefly touch on this, that the people who will see the most regulation are breakers. I think that that's what you're going to start to see. Repackers and breakers are going to get the most regulation because I do believe that there is some type of gaming aspect to this, right? Like to the repacking and breaking. And I think and I told you off air, right? I think whatnot could fix a lot of this issue by adding one button. And that was self exclusion. So when you, when you gamble, you can self exclude yourself at any time and you can actually do it like a cooling off thing, right? Whatnot has never allowed that. And I personally think that that could have been on purpose. I think that they will now. We want to keep that buyer white hot. We don't want anything cool. I think that they will now. I think you've already seen it. They've already added the spending limit thing. So now I think you're going to start to see it even more because they're going to get worried that the gaming commission is going to want their share. That's really what's going to come down to two. You are absolutely going to see more regulation when it comes to the kind of nuts and bolts of this industry. Once things start coming in, like money out the wazoo, that's when people care. And I think that that may be also why PSA did what they did, because I don't think they expected that much of a reaction, especially from a Congressman. No, I agree. I agree. PSA. Like I love, I don't know if you ever do this, but I recommend it. I go back in the, the way, the way back machine on, on line. And I go back and I look at the old, uh, like Beckett forums, like all of that kind of stuff because people dogged on PSA the entire time up until yeah. You can buy a PSA 10 for a fourth of what you could get for about, I mean, that was really the reality. Hey, 30, 70 center in the PSA. That was exactly. And so, I mean, I can still remember even during COVID they were running $10 specials, $15 specials to grade stuff, you know? Uh, yeah, but I, I don't think that they kind of quite realized like, Oh man, this industry is at that point. Like there's a lot of eyes on us and you know, that's from being in the industry for so long. I think they, they may have underestimated that. You won't see that again. I don't think, but you will see, even if there's not true regulation, the fact is there's going to be, you know, big brother's going to be looking over all these guys' shoulders and that's where you're going to start to see some issues. Interesting. Okay. All right. So one, that is the most candid conversation I've heard around some of these issues with somebody that knows what they're talking about. So the entire sports car community, thank you for that. Thank you for not sensationalizing this thing, but just boiling that down for the rest of us idiots that have a Bible college degree and not a law school degree. All right. Nothing wrong with the Bible college. Proud of it. Ohio Christian University Trailblazers. Let's go. Yeah, that's right. But one last question I have for you, you're starting your business tomorrow all over again. It's gone from a hobby. You're kind of seeing what the last couple of years have been for you in the space, almost three now. What would you tell yourself to focus on? What would be like a couple key lessons you've learned where it's like, hey man, this first couple of years, you're growing your business. Nothing's more important than this. That because I guess I'm going to cheat and I'm going to give you two answers. One is going to be content because I think that there is a massive kind of missing aspect of content. You see it with like, uh, like, uh, arbitrage like cards. Like you see him like go out and he does like the low end stuff and his content exploded because guess what? It's great. So there's two aspects to cards right now, right? There's the everyday guy. And then there's the guy who wants to be, you know, uh, uh, you know, big time guy like Roth, I think is, is a good example. Like Ross cards, what he does is insane. Like I will never put that much money into cards and I commend him for doing it. Like, it's cool. It's, it's fun to watch, right? Sure. But there's also that aspect of like the everyday guy who, what do I do with all these cards or what's cool? Like what is a cool nineties card that I can't remember, right? Like tell me about these refractors. I would go in and do content like that. That impacts the everyday dude, because that's who's collecting, that's who's running these. They're the ones coming to these card shows. Um, you get your repackers and stuff, but the guys who truly love it or those types of guys. And then two, I would, I would tell myself to do the exact thing I did, which is value box baby. Like that is the, that's the gap. Like why, why do you say that too many guys go in too hot into this type of business and they say, I'm going to start with $10,000 and they don't know what they're doing. Exactly. That's the issue, right? Yeah. But I'm okay losing a dollar when I bought that card for a dollar, right? It never sells. I'm not going to financially ruin myself. But if I have, if I have 10, $100 cards that don't sell, I'm starting to get, I'm starting to feel the pinch a little bit more if I don't have a lot. Right. And especially if I'm starting to get into this thousand dollar cards, because we know how fast the market changes. A good example of that right now is one piece. One piece was super high just two weeks ago and it has flatlined big time. Oh really? Yeah. I haven't paid. I don't pay anything. After the drop of Netflix, right after it dropped, has dropped significantly. Wow. So like boxes are still selling very well. Singles down the drain currently, dude. So hard. Wow. People. Yeah. So hard to move right now. Stuff that you would normally like, for instance, a good example of that is like my, my guys at seven four Oh, they bought into big one piece cards and now they've gotten, you know, it's tougher to move because it's just not the same as it was two weeks ago. But that's the type of stuff that like, I didn't know before I started getting into this. So I would do the exact same thing. I would say, look, start with a reasonable amount of money. I started with 200 bucks. Like that's what I did. I started with $200. Didn't take a dollar more out of my own bank account. It was like, I'm not doing it. And it took a while for me to grow. Like I fully understand that, but patience is key in this business. Yeah. That's great, man. I really appreciate that perspective of mitigating loss on the front end. So you have time to learn. I think that's, that's It's huge. All right. People want to, now that they've heard this, they want to hear more of you. So how can people find you? Where can they engage with your content? Plug the shop, tell people where you're buying and where they can bring cards, uh, to find you and get all that. You can find me on any platform, Twitter, uh, pretty much over Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and it's all at big John's cards, 24. Everybody asks me why it's 24 and it's because the guy, somebody else owns big John's cards and 24 is my favorite number. Uh, that's literally the only reason that, yep. That's why I picked it. So people always ask me that. And then with seven four Oh, I'm the guy who's doing all of the sports, uh, located in Marriott, Ohio, right off of Pike street. If you look up some for a hobby, it is the only one in existence. So it makes it really easy for you to find on Google. Uh, I am always one of those guys. I love when people DM me, I think it's great. Like I love having those conversations and I love when people come up to me at shows like the coolest thing that I have going for me right now. Um, and I've seen you guys have this too, which is like a kid comes up and is like, I watch your content. Can I have a photo like that to me? Like that's, that is the hobby because without them there's no future. That's the stuff that I love and that's the stuff I try to portray and put out there. Uh, but yeah, you can find me big John's cards, 24, pretty much everywhere. And those of you watching now, you can see exactly what I said, what I said at the beginning, John's just as pleasant as he was on this interview at any show. Just look for the beard and the sign with the beards. Um, and then just in cases full of nukes, you'll, you'll know that it's him. You'll know that it's him. I can't thank you enough for making the time for this and our community appreciates the value you added. Thanks so much. This was a blast. Okay. I hope that you were paying attention there, taking notes, a lot to understand. Um, and I really appreciated his willingness to just be pretty direct with us, uh, on what he was seeing, understanding multiple ways. A lot of these things can play out. Uh, but be sure to give big John's cards 24 of follow. We'll make sure to have the links, everything in the bio. He is going to, you're going to be seeing more and more content. And if you're in that Marietta area, take your cards in the big John, let him have a crack at it. Let him make an offer for you. Um, really good dude. Like we've, we've known John for, for a while now, uh, started seeing him at shows two or three years ago and, uh, have, uh, just done quite a bit of business with him. And like Jason said earlier, we try not to bring people on to the show that we don't fully support and, uh, feel comfortable telling you guys to go follow and support too. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. Um, quick reminders before we head out from this episode, um, follow the link tree for following us anywhere. If you want to do socials, YouTube, audio, whatever, we have seen a big uptick over the last few months. It means so much to us. Quick reminder to subscribe here, like and subscribe here. It helps us on YouTube. Yeah. A quick reminder to those of you that forget, uh, reviews on Apple and Spotify podcasts matter. We got a rough one a few months back. It broke my heart. Somebody thought we were falling off and we were just negative and we weren't offering much value. Like we used to, that was like a year and a half ago. I would not like for that to remain the most recent, if you get a check, a chance and you have enjoyed, or you hate the pod, let us know, leave a review. We'd appreciate that. Uh, what else? Uh, whatnot. Every Wednesday night I'm live on the solo show every Friday for the foreseeable future. I'm selling off my eBay store and a lot show and Sunday, fun day at four 30. If you've never seen a Sunday fun day, Patrick Ewing, you have not experienced whatnot. Very fair way of saying that. Anything else you have, Gary? I know you, bro. You're on a boat. I hate your guts. This has been the ball card show. These sports podcasts or these sports collector. I hate you, Gary. Peace.